Hardy vs Weeks defensively

[logan82]

The general consensus seems to be that Hardy is a better defender than Weeks. I wouldn't disagree with that. My question is, how much better is Hardy than Weeks? In my opinion they are pretty close on defense. I think that Weeks is still held back by coming up with a reputation of being a bad defender and Hardy the benefit of coming up with a good defensive reputation. When Weeks makes a mistake the general feeling is that Weeks should sit a few days. If Hardy would do the same thing the general feeling seems to be "go get them next time JJ." I think Hardy has better hands, a more accurate arm and turns the double play better. I think Weeks has better range. I think that a better 1B would put them on an even playing field. I don't remember most of Weeks throws being in the stands. They are usually in the dirt, but not drastically far off.

Edit: I think it is harder for a 2B to turn a double play than a SS. The SS has the benefit of having everything in front of him and not having to make a turn to throw.

[Cracked Bat Collector]

Do you not watch games on a regular basis? Weeks' defense is nowhere near Hardy's. Weeks is one of the worst defensive infielders I've ever seen.

[valpocrewsader]

I saw Weeks drop or bobble at least 5 balls (maybe more like 10?) this year that any beer league softball player would have handled with ease. They're not close. Hardy is a talented hand-eye coordination ball player and Weeks is chronically boneheaded with the glove.

[zzzmanwitz]

wow, I really wasn't expecting to see a serious post to start out this thread. There is no way that Weeks compares to Hardy defensively. I am one of the few that believe that someday, Weeks could win a gold glove. He has the ability. However, today, at this very moment, Hardy is so far ahead of Weeks defensively, its not even funny.

[Ennder]

I'd say they are roughly equal with maybe a slight advantage to Hardy. Weeks gets to a lot of balls Hardy couldn't dream of but Weeks boots plays that Hardy makes routinely. Both are roughly league average for their position. Way too much attention gets put on errors which and not enough on range in general for fan perceptions of defense.

[endaround]

Of course it doesn't help when Weeks gets injured and the MJS beat reporter jokes about how much the defense will improve with Durham playing.

[StearnsFTW]

Hardy's probably a little bit better, but it's a heck of a lot closer than most people think imo. JJ has great hands and terrible range, Rickie has great range and terrible hands. Because Rickie's errors are so bad I.e. On routine plays, his repuatation suffers. He makes up for those by getting to far more balls than most 2basemen. Again, closer than people think, but JJ's still got the edge.

[mkm13]

JJ has great hands and terrible range, Rickie has great range and terrible hands. Because Rickie's errors are so bad I.e. On routine plays, his repuatation suffers. He makes up for those by getting to far more balls than most 2basemen.

Can you show me a link or statistics that shows Rickie gets to far more balls than most 2nd baseman? Out of qualified 2nd baseman his zone rating is 9th out of 16. His range factor is also 9th out of 16. I am not an expert on those statistics by any means and I am not sure how accuratly STATS Inc. measures their typical "zone", but I am not seeing what you are talking about. If you are calling JJ's range terrible, than Rickies would be terrible as well because his zone rating is almost the exact same.

[buckybrewer]

While Weeks has improved over the years, he is not the fielder Hardy is. Both had 15 errors this season while Hardy had only 40 more chances, you have to remember that Weeks could not be credited with a number of throwing errors. You can't assume a double play, so when we throws one in the dirt on a turn it doesn't count as an error. I will say this, I initially thought the original post was a joke, but looking at it more you see that Weeks has made vast improvement.

[rluzinski]

As a general rule, when a SS plays at 2B, his defense improves. When a 2B plays SS, his defense suffers. Playing SS requires more skill overall, so let's keep that in mind for this discussion.

 

Hardy's defense my have been overhyped when he was brought up but everything I've seen points to him being at least an average SS. And while Weeks is not the worst defender ever, I think it's fair to say that he's still a below average 2B.

 

Average SS vs. Below Average 2B = Big Difference

[Fatter than Joey]

Average SS vs. Below Average 2B = Big Difference

 

It seems like people are talking about 2 different things --

 

1.) If you are comparing strictly JJ Hardy v. Weeks strictly against each other -- like if they both played 2b, or both played SS -- I think Hardy is worlds better.

 

2.) If you are comparing Hardy and Weeks v. other players at their respective positions -- I suspect it is pretty close. I think Hardy is an average SS, and Weeks is a bit below average.

[logan82]

Fatter than Joey wrote:

2.) If you are comparing Hardy and Weeks v. other players at their respective positions -- I suspect it is pretty close. I think Hardy is an average SS, and Weeks is a bit below average.

I should have been clearer that this is what I meant. I think that if we put them both at the same position Hardy would be better. I brought this up to get people thinking about it a little more.

 

Zone rating measures how many balls you get to within your zone. I am not sure how good the stats are for JJ. He led the league in Out Of Zone plays for a SS. He was 12th in RZR. I would think the opposite from watching him. He gets to balls in his zone very well, but not out of zone plays.

[dhoffman19]

I really don't think Weeks' range is all that great. It seems like it should be, since he's fast running the bases, but his range has never impressed me. Either he doesn't see the ball well off the bat or he just doesn't move side-to-side all that well - but i don't remember too many plays where he got to balls I thought were out of reach. I think the range factors and zone ratings kind of tell the story on that.

[SDOwen28]

Weeks is in the bottom 3% of mid infielders in the league defensively, if not the worst mid infielder.

[Diskono]

Zone rating measures how many balls you get to within your zone. I am not sure how good the stats are for JJ. He led the league in Out Of Zone plays for a SS. He was 12th in RZR. I would think the opposite from watching him. He gets to balls in his zone very well, but not out of zone plays.

Would the out-of-zone plays be a result of the Brewers employing an exaggerated shift often?

[logan82]

Diskono wrote:

Would the out-of-zone plays be a result of the Brewers employing an exaggerated shift often?

I think so, but it is hard to get a definitive answer on it. If a metric is reliable I think that it would account for shifts. I am not sure if RZR accounts for shifts either. If that is the case it wouldn't give Hardy credit for balls hit to the SS position when he is shifted and give him a lower RZR. At least that's how I would interpret the stats being opposite of what we expect. The other thing with RZR is that it might be low for Hardy because his range is so bad he can't get to balls he should within his zone. I doubt that though. I don't know enough about the defensive stats to make a good call on them.

[TooLiveBrew]

Weeks is in the bottom 3% of mid infielders in the league defensively, if not the worst mid infielder.

 

This is a huge part of the problem in having the kind of discussion logan wants to set up (& I'd imagine part of the reason why he posed the question) ... that comment just isn't true.

[Ennder]

Weeks showed a lot of improvement this year especially in the first half so I completely disagree with that 3% comment. He slipped some in the second half so it is hard to say if he just got 'lucky' in the first half or if he genuinely improved. They usually like to use at least 2 seasons worth of data to come up with any opinion on fielding and then look at it from multiple systems to make sure they all agree.

[jhart05]

I saw Weeks drop or bobble at least 5 balls (maybe more like 10?) this year that any beer league softball player would have handled with ease.

 

 

Well, come on now. I've played a lot of beer league softball in my life.

 

That ball is not coming at you nearly as fast as it is in the Majors.

[CheezWizHed]

logan3825[/b]]Zone rating measures how many balls you get to within your zone. I am not sure how good the stats are for JJ. He led the league in Out Of Zone plays for a SS. He was 12th in RZR. I would think the opposite from watching him. He gets to balls in his zone very well, but not out of zone plays.

Not to pick on logan, but I find this statement to be rather ironic and part of the problem with this whole discussion. The stats say one thing, but subjectively, we think the opposite is true (so we don't trust the stats). Yet people will use the stats to say player X's range is better/worse than player Y.

 

I don't know my defensive stats at all, so I don't know how accurate/reliable they are. I do know defensive stats are not as definitive as offensive stats.

[Gobias Industries]

I'd definitely take Hardy, just because of his sure-handedness. Weeks' main problem is the pivot, otherwise I'd say he's just about average in everything else. It's is so frustrating to see him make a great play one inning, and botch a routine the next.

 

This is a good discussion, because I do feel that fans overstate Weeks defensive liabilites, and overrate JJ's abilities. I mean, come on, 5 to 10 plays a beer league softball player would make? That just simply is not true. The only play that I thought was truly horrible was the miscue in the playoffs. Of course, Bill Hall didn't do him any favors, but as Kurjian said, that play needs to be made 100 out of 100 times. I'm fairly certain I could have made that play, and so could have a lot of non-professionals.

 

He did make some terrific plays in the field, which he didn't seem to do in years past. The Peavy vs Sheets duel on 9/6 featured a great play with a runner on 2nd with 2 outs by Weeks. One of the best plays I've ever seen a 2nd baseman make and definitely was a huge moment in a big victory. It hardly got any praise around here, or even in the media, whereas the miscue against the Cubs in July had people questioning whether he'd play another inning in a Brewer uniform again, and even led to the infamous Hardricourt "It's big boy time" line.

[StearnsFTW]

JJ has great hands and terrible range, Rickie has great range and terrible hands. Because Rickie's errors are so bad I.e. On routine plays, his repuatation suffers. He makes up for those by getting to far more balls than most 2basemen.

Can you show me a link or statistics that shows Rickie gets to far more balls than most 2nd baseman? Out of qualified 2nd baseman his zone rating is 9th out of 16. His range factor is also 9th out of 16. I am not an expert on those statistics by any means and I am not sure how accuratly STATS Inc. measures their typical "zone", but I am not seeing what you are talking about. If you are calling JJ's range terrible, than Rickies would be terrible as well because his zone rating is almost the exact same.

Yeah, well my face is red. I clearly didn't research that comment before I made it, I was just going on the "eye test". Which I don't normally do.

 

Needless to say, I'm stunned by that information. Hardy is about where I'd expect him (maybe a little higher), and Weeks is considerably lower than I expected. I really thought Weeks would rank a lot higher than that, particularly given some of the stone-footed 2b in the NL this year like Kent & Uggla.

 

Given the statistical evidence, I guess Hardy is quite a bit better than Weeks.

[logan82]

TooLiveBrew[/b]]Weeks is in the bottom 3% of mid infielders in the league defensively, if not the worst mid infielder.

 

This is a huge part of the problem in having the kind of discussion logan wants to set up (& I'd imagine part of the reason why he posed the question) ... that comment just isn't true.

Comments like that are exactly what got me thinking about Hardy vs Weeks on defense.

 

 

Not to pick on logan, but I find this statement to be rather ironic and part of the problem with this whole discussion. The stats say one thing, but subjectively, we think the opposite is true (so we don't trust the stats). Yet people will use the stats to say player X's range is better/worse than player Y.

 

I don't think it is picking on me to state your opinion. I don't think we can use stats to compare guys at 2 different positions. I think that they are a useful tool when comparing guys at the same position. When comparing guys at 2 different positions I think we have to use the defensive matrix.

C-SS-2B-CF-3B-RF-LF-1B(you can leave C out of it if you like since the catching position is highly specialized compared to the rest)

If guys are close you take the guy the furthest to the left on the matrix.

 

If you asked most BF.net posters to describe JJ as a defender my guess is that most of the responses would be something along the lines of

+Good hands

+Strong accurate arm

-average range

That's what troubles me about the OOZ and RZR stats. How does JJ have 15% more OOZ plays than the next closest guy when many posters would agree that his range is average? In my opion it points at a huge flaw in how the stat is done. It should take where a player is positioned into consideration when making a judgement on whether the player should have made the play or giving credit for an out of zone play. Since it is closely related to how RZR is done it points to a flaw in that as well since it also doesn't take positioning into consideration.

[valpocrewsader]

I mean, come on, 5 to 10 plays a beer league softball player would make? That just simply is not true.

Well, come on now. I've played a lot of beer league softball in my life. ... That ball is not coming at you nearly as fast as it is in the Majors.

 

 

I guess we'll just have to disagree then. I'm not referring to scorchers, I'm referring to plays like:

 

1) One of the few spring training games I attended this year, JJ flips a soft toss about waist-high to Weeks covering 2B. The ball hits Weeks' glove and he drops it.

2) Cubs game with CC on the hill, fails to catch/handle/secure the throw from JJ on a double-play ball.

3) Game 1 of the playoffs, Hall throws routinely over to first and Weeks finds a way to botch an unbotchable play.

 

That's only three, but I know there's got to be at least another 5 similar incidents that I remember occuring in games while I was in the chat room. Can't recall the exact plays, but sure remember voicing the displeasure. Then there's probably another handful or several from times I was watching TV somewhere away from the computer. And some of them are inconsequential, but they're still an indicator of his bad glove. Like him taking a throw as cutoff man when there's basically no play, but finding a way to muff the catch to make absolutely sure there's no play. Or covering the bag at second on a play when there's no chance and doing something stupid with the glove to look like a little leaguer when the throw arrives. Maybe the count is more like 20-25 numbskull plays during this past year. JJ? Maybe 1 or 2 all year that are on the same level. Rickie is absolutely boneheaded in the field, I've seen enough to convince me of that. Maybe our standards are different or maybe I'm more observant or maybe it's something else, but I don't think I'm making it up and it amazes me that everyone doesn't feel roughly the same way on this.

[Ennder]

Weeks definitely loses focus and makes silly errors which hurts him defensively. He has above average range though which offsets it. I think Weeks is probably a slightly below average 2B but I think Hardy is just an average SS and might be slightly below avg. So with respects to the position they play I think it is pretty even. Hardy is reliable but unspectacular, Weeks is erratic.

 

Every player in baseball messes up easy plays from time to time though. Just look at that Cubs game where every one of their infielders made a silly error and they are an above average defensive IF. Weeks just makes them more often than others and people end up dwelling on it. A dive and miss on a play that another player makes doesn't seem to bother people as much as just making a silly error.