You are the weakest links! (rate your top 2 places to improve the Brewers)

[Hammer]

I have been one of the loudest advocates for getting rid of Prince Fielder since his dugout tantrum that could have hurt Manny Parra...and have voiced my opinion here and there on several threads. There are others that want to see Hall/Counsell booted away from 3rd (booted...just works with Hall). Some are ready to get Corey Hart out of MKE. Then, finally, there is the group that is skewering Rickie Weeks. Lets just put it in one place to discuss it instead of in all of the other various threads.

 

Which two Brewers position players would you ship out if you had the authority (and could get a reasonable return). You really don't need to come up with trade ideas here...just let us know who needs to go (leave the GM'ing up to Doug Melvin...and that).

 

I'll start:

 

1. Prince Fielder needs to be in the American League. He is horrible on defense and will not get any better as long as his weight keeps going up. I also think that his "intensity" and "grit" are bad for the clubhouse because he doesn't use them in a positive way. He throws tantrums, attacks other players and carries it out on the field with him. Bad dude with a worse attitude. I'd also like to add the Boras factor to my list.

 

2. Bill Hall needs to be traded to a team that needs an everyday shortstop. Even though his numbers were horrid in 2008 he still has a bunch of value at short. He is still athletic enough to play the position and I think that he would just be more comfortable there in the long run. To me, it seems like he has been lost with all of the shuffling on the diamond. Get him back to his original position and let him work everything else out.

[joepepsi]

Corey Hart and Bill Hall.

[rm121978]

Hall and Weeks. They were awful all year while Hart mostly struggled in September along with 95% of the rest of the team. Improving 2B or 3B would be much more important than improving RF.

[ELCABALLO45]

I agree with you on Bill Hall. I think some team WOULD think he could still be a everyday player and we should take a chance with the 1st team that bites.

 

I don't agree with you on Prince however. I dont see why so many people want to get rid of Prince. I understand he is bad on defense. But the dude is a offensive machine. He makes up for it.

 

Ryan Braun and Prince Fielder are 2 of the best young sluggers in baseball and we have them both till at least 2012. That's our 3 and 4 hole hitters, who will be considered the best 1-2 punch in the NL for at least the next 4 years. Without Prince, Braun would get nothing to hit. And his numbers would struggle. I could see trading him in a couple years. I could. But not now. He carried the Brewers offense down the stretch this year.

[Ennder]

By far the weakest position on the team is 3B, Hall has to go and I would hope no team is silly enough to give him a starting job. He is ok as a utility player who faces lefties mostly though.

 

Too early for me to give up on Hart and Weeks was an above average 2B this year so I can live with him. Only other really ugly spot on the team was Counsell who slipped offensively and defensively. I'd like to see us replace him as the utility infielder (with Hall would be ok though I'd rather have someone else left handed in the role).

 

Of course if Kendall's defense slips back to his 2007 rates he'll be completely useless and could be the #2.

[ELCABALLO45]

Rickie Weeks was not a above average 2nd Baseman.

[logan82]

Weeks

.234/.342/.398/.740

Average MLB 2B

.276/.338/.409/.747

 

Pretty much average.

 

I have to agree that 3B is the #1 area that needs to be improved next year. I think #2 depends on who we are bringing back. We are going to need bullpen arms and bench players. I think we are pretty set almost everywhere else.

[lbb020]

Hart and 3rd base. They cannot rely on the platoon of Counsell and Hall again next year, unless if Hall could somehow return to 2005-2006 offensive #'s he obviously wouldn't be a problem. I think they should look for a starting 3rd baseman to take the job on...but I wouldn't be so quick to unload Hall because of his versatility. He almost seems to be best when he's bouncing around from position to position filling in for injured/giving guys a day off. For Hart, I would really like to see them make a run at Bobby Abreu...of course only if its a reasonable contract because he'll be 35 to start next season. His production and patients at the plate would be huge to have in our lineup (OBP of .400 or higher 9 of the last 12 seasons and 100 RBI or more 7 of the past 12). I really believe they should trade Hart while he still has some considerable value.....a package of Hart and a combination of players for a #2 starter would be nice.

[patrickgpe]

i'll take a slightly different approach, because I don't think the problem is 2 players need to go away. The brewers need a leadoff hitter, which traditionally comes from the CF position. Therefore cameron, you are the weakest link....goodbye.

 

The second brewer is weeks. he only redeeming quality is that he gets on base. He continues to make defensive mistakes and hits for a very low average. I'm sure someone will take a chance on him in hopes of turing him into the next brandon phillips. The brewers could also try to get a leadoff hitter from this position of course too.

[Bring Back the Stein]

1. Clearly, the fans who boo are the weakest link.

2. Mike Rivera. I mean, if he was any good, he'd be playing right?

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

With the pitching unlikely to be what it was last year (losing CC & Sheets offset by a full year of Gallardo)...the Brewers need to pick up 30-40 runs. Ennder has had some interesting posts on this that I agree with. Rough estimate...that means they need to have an OPS in the range of the Phillies (.770) and Cardinals (.783)...versus the .757 they put up this year...perhaps another 20 bps. Holding most of the positions the same (I think a decent assumption since most of the players have yet to hit their prime)...

 

1. Hall, 3B - Replacing Hall with an average NL third baseman would probably get them halfway there. Hall was flat out horrendous. A .689 OPS at a premium bat position? Two horrible years in a row is enough proof for me. We cannot afford the black hole of production he supplied this year. Maybe Hall becomes our utility player over Counsell. He's got a slightly better bat with some power...although the glove is much worse. It's not like anyone will take that contract.

 

2. Bench player - Everyone is down on Weeks & Hart. They are still young...Weeks is at least average and Hart was fairly good for 2/3 of the season...I'm not ready to give up there. Just a slight improvement by these two to more normalized OPS could get the other half of the improvement. I'd stick with them...they are cheap options and replace Counsell with a better bat.

 

For gosh sakes...do not trade Prince. He has a great bat and is our only decent LH hitter.

[ELCABALLO45]

I said he was not a above avg. 2nd baseman.

 

Add in his below avg. Defense and you pretty much get a below avg. 2nd baseman.

[BrewCrewRising]

1. Clearly, the fans who boo are the weakest link.

2. Mike Rivera. I mean, if he was any good, he'd be playing right?

Number 1 is completely correct. Number 2 are the fans who sell their tickets to Cubs fans.

 

Bill Hall definitely, and then I'd say Weeks. Hart was bad, but I think the reaction there is the taste that is left in our mouths because he ended the season playing so poorly.

 

Weeks may have been average, but that's not good enough. Besides, I think his defense is a downside. Use him as a trading chip, or move him to CF.

 

I'm concerned about catcher though. What will happen next year? Kendall full time again? Please let it be that they bring up one of the young guys and develop him, or else give Rivera more time. However, while I bet Melvin at least looks to upgrade 3B and upgrade or augment 2B, I think we're screwed at catcher. I'm betting that they promoted Kendal to special Catcher-GM where he gets to make all the decisions about catchers for the whole team. They sure like to give him a lot to do.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Of course if Kendall's defense slips back to his 2007 rates he'll be completely useless and could be the #2.

 

Great point...Kendall was outstanding behind the dish this year. He threw runners out at a great clip and had those "intanglibles" with our pitching staff. Tough to say what that was worth, but the pitching was very good. However, he is very weak at the plate. With his age and the beating he took from starting all those games this year, there is strong chance he regresses. The argument to the contrary is he kept himself in great shape. He didn't seem to let down with all those games played. Maybe I'm just used to seeing a guy like Estrada break down as the year went on because he was so fat and out of shape.

[bork]

i'll take a slightly different approach, because I don't think the problem is 2 players need to go away. The brewers need a leadoff hitter, which traditionally comes from the CF position. Therefore cameron, you are the weakest link....goodbye.

I was thinking the same thing.

 

Leadoff hitter and 3B are the two places that need to improve the most. I'm willing to give Weeks one more shot. Maybe a full year of not hitting leadoff will help him.

[diener34]

The two weakest links for me are:

 

Bill Hall/Everyday 3b

Closer

 

What are the odds Torres can do what he did again? Closer is my biggest concern.

 

What I don't understand is people that want to see hart go. That is just crazy IMO.

[wisconsinfan47]

-3rd Base (Hardy?)

-Bullpen / Closer (McClung?)

[joepepsi]

Hart was bad, but I think the reaction there is the taste that is left in our mouths because he ended the season playing so poorly.

Hart fills two requirements for trading a player. He will get the best return while being relatively easy to replace. Trading Hardy or Prince creates a huge hole in the offense. 26 year old ss who hit like Prime Tejada are not easily replaced, neither are 24 year old 1B who has hit 80 some homers in two years and has the best plate discipline on a team that has possibly the worst plate discipline in all of MLB.

 

Hart's bad finish only served to emphasize what we already knew; he is a talented player with bad plate discipline. If he's going to hit like a below average corner outfielder, then the simplest way to improve the team's obp is to replace him, preferably with a left handed hitter who can draw walks. Getting average production from a corner outfield spot must be about the simplest need to fill on a baseball team.

 

Hart's "five tool talent" will make him attractive to rebuilding teams. His hacking tendencies play to a serious weakness on this team. Another season with a lineup that finshes 11 in obp will be another season offensive regression. Trading Hart could bring a talented starter for the rotation. Finding a replacement veteran free agent or a platoon in RF that emphasizes obp will go a long to improving the offense.

[Ennder]

Weeks

.234/.342/.398/.740

Average MLB 2B

.276/.338/.409/.747

 

Pretty much average.

 

I have to agree that 3B is the #1 area that needs to be improved next year. I think #2 depends on who we are bringing back. We are going to need bullpen arms and bench players. I think we are pretty set almost everywhere else.

Player A is slightly better than player B in that list, it is about as even as you can get. Add in above average baserunning and an average defensive 2B which is what Weeks was this year statistically and you get a slightly above average 2B. Probably more accurate to just call him average though, I can agree with that.

[logan82]

Ennder wrote:

Player A is slightly better than player B in that list, it is about as even as you can get. Add in above average baserunning and an average defensive 2B which is what Weeks was this year statistically and you get a slightly above average 2B. Probably more accurate to just call him average though, I can agree with that.

All else being close to equal, I would take the guy with a higher OBP every time.

 

Other than 3B, I think improving our position players is far down the list of concerns.

[Ashford Lando]

Good thread -- great way to word the concern of "what do we do now?"

 

#1 -- Rickie Reeks. This guy has to go -- I am one to hang onto potential, particularly since we have the 'condition' of small market, but I am ready to give up. Beautiful bat speed, but he has yet to do anything with it.

 

#2 -- Hall is the obvious answer, but I just don't see anyone taking him. So, he does need to be regulated to the bench and we need a full time 3B. Additionally, we need Prince one more year. Corey -- wow, we are all quick to give up on him, but given the correct return, it is time. As mentioned earlier, good trade return and easily replaceable.

 

On a side note, if we are going to give JJ a new position (I hope so, I do not want to see him traded) why don't we start now and maybe use Hall as the SS stop-gap to Escobar?

[sausage racer]

1. Bill Hall / 3rd Base
2. Mike Cameron / leadoff spot.

wathing these 2 bat at the bottom of the same order together was horrible most the year. you could pencil in 5-6 K's a night easy. Cameron was a little better in the leadoff spot though as he somehow learned to take a pitch at the end of the season. It was Hard not to put Rickie Weeks on this list though.

[kramnoj]

I think the Brewers could benefit by seeing if Hall can be traded for something, or even given away to teams in need. The FA class for SS this year is quite weak. Furcal is probably the only guy that will get some big-dollar attention. If Bill Hall were available, he wouldn't have a good projection, but he would probably have the best history of offensive value. If some team was desperate to improve and wanted to take a chance, Hall might be worth a gamble. I've been looking through teams, seeing who they have in the system, who will have openings. There's a couple of teams that might want to take a chance on Hall at SS:

 

Orioles: They had 5 different players start 20+ games at SS. Alex Cintron was the best of them, and his OPS+ was 81, and he should be a FA. The team was bad this year, and Angelos can't be happy about finishing last in the division.

 

White Sox: Cabrera is a FA, and the Sox really don't have anyone at the position that looks ready to contribute offensively.

 

Dodgers?: Obviously depends on if they re-sign Furcal. Don't see much depth at the position if Furcal leaves. I don't think this is likely, the Dodgers may feel pressure to focus on Manny and Lowe, the gamble of Hall probably isn't worth it to them.

 

I wouldn't expect to get much, if anything for Halll in return, but it would be worth exploring whether some teams would take a chance on Hall regaining his form rather than going with youth or players who don't have the HR pop that Hall has.

[sbrylski]

1. Jeff Suppan

 

Of course its highly unlikely he's replaced, but the farther down we can push him in the rotation the better. If he debuts next season as #3, we are in rough shape. If he goes 5th, his performance would be acceptable, ignoring the salary.

 

2. Third Base

 

Somewhere, somehow, we need to find a capable stopgap. Both Gamel and Escobar should be in AAA for a season, so we need another season out of Hardy at SS. Once Gamel's final position is determined, it should set off a chain reaction for 2010 - Gamel to 3B, Hardy traded; Gamel to RF, Hardy to 3B, Hart traded or to CF; Gamel to 1B, Hardy to 3B, Fielder traded. (Escobar at SS in all scenarios.) I'm fine with any of those situations, provided we get good value, but we need a bridge at 3B to keep us competitive in 2009.

[clancyphile]

1. Third base. Anyone else miss having Braun's bat at third? I sure did.

2. Bench. The Brewers got lucky - no starter outside Cameron missed significant time, but they are still a little thin.

 

Plan A: Package Escobar and Suppan to get Blalock for a year at third. Not the best option, but the Crew could do worse than Blalock for a year, until Gamel is ready.

 

Bench: Locate a decent backup SS/2B. I would put forward Angel Berroa as a candidate for that. He had some godo years, but has been relegated to a backup role the last two seasons. He'd come cheap, and in better times, was not quite JJ, but wasn't a liability. Bring Rottino in as a third catcher/backup 1B/3B/LF. Keep Hall as a utility guy. Rivera's the #2 catcher. Add Kapler and Gwynn for OF depth.