Could Escobar or Hardy play 2B?

[And That]

However much of a liability he'd be at the plate in relation to other shortstops, Escobar would be that much more of a liability at the plate in relation to other second basemen. Not to mention the nosedive his defensive value would take.

 

If we trade Weeks for something valuable that is not a second baseman, I'd just assume go with a Graffanino or Durham type guy for this year and leave Esocobar to mature in AAA.

[monkeyman343434]

I missed the likes of Rolen, Teahen, Reynolds, Blalock, Chavez, Crede, Figgins (i think he'd be a perfect fit, but don't see the Halos dealing him), but I don't see any of them as an upgrade over Hardy at 3B,

also, I don't see how you can compare Adam Everett to Escobar, Everett's best offensive season in the minors was a .275 avg/.711 ops as a 25 year old in AAA in 375 at bats, Escobar just posted a 797 ops as a 21 year old in AA, i also don't think Escobar's defense is that far off of Everett, and I would for sure say it's better than Hardy, I was out in Spring Training this last year, the whole week that Hardy had his flu or whatever, and saw Escobar play that entire week at SS, and he is just so frickin quick out there in the field and gets to everything. That play he made on St Paddy's day in the hole towards 3B, backhanded pick, jump, and perfect strike to 1B was amazing. He's got as strong of an arm as Hardy. An Escobar/Hardy ss/3b in 2010 i think would be ideal (unless Gamel can stick at 3B, which i really don't think will happen)

[logan82]

An infield of Fielder, Weeks, Hardy, Hall/Branyan is better than taking one of those guys out to include Escobar on the infield.

 

I don't remember if it was TH or Adam McCalvy but there was a mention somewhere about Randolph working with Escobar at 2B in spring training sometime last week.

[monkeyman343434]

like said before, Escobar playing 2B would be just stupid, it would decrease his value a ton, i'm not saying Escobar should be with the team in 2009, I'd prefer him to stay in AAA all of 2009 and get more experience, he's only going to be 22 the whole 2009 season, after which, I believe he'll prove he deserves to be the starting SS in 2010

[strawbossisevil]

I would guess that his working at 2b would not necessarily mean that he'd be moving there full time, but a concession that he will be our backup MI for next season. If all he can play is SS, that limits our options as to when we can use him. But if he can come in and be a defensive replacement at 2nd late in games, and give both Rickie and JJ a break, his value as a bench player goes up. It would also provide him the opportunity to get plenty of ABs next season which would help him in his offensive development. If he is going to play at the major league level next year as a backup, he is going to need the ability to play multiple positions.

[CheezWizHed]

Ennder[/b]]Jason Kendall at 1B is less valuable than he is at C, I don't know how that doesn't make sense. Instead of moving Hardy to 3B we could probably sign an average 3B who would be about as productive as he was, for that same money we couldn't hope to find a SS to replace him. His value has most certainly gone down with a move. All of that to make room for a SS that might never be better than Adam Everett with worse defense. I just don't think it makes much sense.

 

If we decide to go with Escobar in say 2010 then the option that makes the most sense is to trade Hardy for value and sign a 3B instead of moving him.

Ok, let me clarify. I understand the concept of positional value. I don't understand the obsession with it. Of course no one wants Kendall at 1B because there are many better options (both cheap and expensive, trade or FA or promotion from within). But the same can't be said for Hardy at 3B (there are some, but what would it take to get them? Probably more than Hardy).

 

When/If Escobar is ready for the majors (assuming he is good enough to push Hardy out of the SS position) and Hardy is our best option at 3B, then he needs to play 3B. Who cares about his "value" there. If we can't get someone better (and I appreciate monkeyman's post on who would be better than Hardy), then he plays there. IMO, his increased "value" at SS over 3B is pretty small, especially considering his limited range at SS. He still would make an above average 3B. Kendall would rank last at every offensive category at 1B. Big difference.

 

I have serious doubt we will find the a trade to send Hardy out for a better hitting 3B without giving up a lot more. This isn't fantasy baseball here... To say that JJ shouldn't play 3B only because he has more value at SS is a poor arguement. If it makes our team better, that is the goal.

[thebruce44]

I would guess that his working at 2b would not necessarily mean that he'd be moving there full time, but a concession that he will be our backup MI for next season.

 

I think the only way we see Escobar in the majors next year is if Hardy or Weeks goes on the DL for an extended amount of time. He will start the year in AAA and get consistent ABs. If there is an injury, then perhaps he gets consistent ABs in the majors. A prospect like Escobar will not be sitting on the bench though at any point.

[strawbossisevil]

Until they sign a backup middle infielder, we may have to go on the assumption that Escobar will be the backup middle infielder next season. We have no one on our current team that could play backup SS other than Escobar since we got rid of Craig Counsell.

[endaround]

Hall could backup SS

[TooLiveBrew]

When/If Escobar is ready for the majors (assuming he is good enough to push Hardy out of the SS position) and Hardy is our best option at 3B, then he needs to play 3B. Who cares about his "value" there.

 

Again, you're ignoring that we could get a 3B that would be closer to JJ's value, AND the value in return for trading one of the top SS in the game. I don't want to see Hardy dealt, but you seem to continue to omit this relevant factor. Hardy could very realistically net us a #2 type SP.

 

Plus there's the whole 'J.J. has told Melvin he will not move to 3B' thing.

 

 

I have serious doubt we will find the a trade to send Hardy out for a better hitting 3B without giving up a lot more. This isn't fantasy baseball here...

 

The argument is not 'ship Hardy out for his direct replacement at 3B', it's that a 3B close to Hardy's production will be much easier to find than at SS. Therefore, you trade him as a SS, and get maximized value. If you get a 3Bman for him, great. I'd rather see them target pitching if the Brewers have to make the decision to move Hardy.

[CheezWizHed]

I agree that if we can get a 3B that is JJ's equivalent it would be great to get pitching for JJ. But how long has it been since we have had an above average 3B? Kevin Seitzer? I don't know that they are all that available. Or maybe its our bad luck there...

 

I'm also not sure why playing him at 3B would prevent us from trading him as a SS. Its not like he can't play the position.

 

Plus there's the whole 'J.J. has told Melvin he will not move to 3B' thing.

Oh come on! Your believing what Melvin tells the media now? http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

If Escobar turns out and If we get a good 3B, great. But I would still keep JJ at 3B an option.

[TooLiveBrew]

I don't know that they are all that available.

 

They're easier to find than at SS, which is really the only relevant comparison imo. As a base example (not wanting to get into specifics of expected future performance here), Hank Blalock could be available, and would provide comparable production to Hardy.

 

 

I'm also not sure why playing him at 3B would prevent us from trading him as a SS.

 

It wouldn't, but through a comment from Melvin, J.J. has told him he would not be "amenable" to the position switch. And this time, yes, I do believe Doug http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[sgtcluels]

I think straw is correct. Escobar may start the season on the roster as a backup for SS/2B, perhaps even called up once he starts as Nashville for a bit. DM has said that he's looking to cheapen up the backups. Who's cheaper then a rookie?

[endaround]

Lots of players are cheaper when you waste a year of a top prospect by sitting him on the bench.

[CheezWizHed]

Yeah, how can you not have Escobar playing everday (somewhere)? Put him at AAA. Get someone at the MLB minimum to spot JJ once every two weeks. Anything serious happens, Escobar is a plane ride away.

[monkeyman343434]

I agree, Escobar has to be playing fulltime in 2009, and it sure won't be in the majors (ok, maybe a 5% chance of that?)

but, TLB, the whole point what Cheez (i think) and i have been saying, is it's really easy to say, "we're going to go get a 3B that hits similar or better than Hardy, and sign him cheaper than what Hardy would make at SS, then trade Hardy b/c he has more value as a SS" but when you actually look at it, there aren't really any options at 3B available that would be near Hardy offensively (and probably defensively at 3B), you mention Blalock, have you looked at his numbers lately? well i guess you really don't need to because he has barely played the last two seasons, no more than 58 games each season - and the majority couldn't wait for sheets to leave town because he's so "injury prone" and his career stats don't say much either, he has a .702 career ops away from his nice home hitters park

[logan82]

A Hall/Branyan(or Lamb) platoon at 3B should be expected to outproduce whatever Escobar brings to the offense and has a good chance to outproduce JJ next year.

[TooLiveBrew]

the whole point what Cheez (i think) and i have been saying, is it's really easy to say, "we're going to go get a 3B that hits similar or better than Hardy, and sign him cheaper than what Hardy would make at SS, then trade Hardy b/c he has more value as a SS" but when you actually look at it, there aren't really any options at 3B available that would be near Hardy offensively (and probably defensively at 3B), you mention Blalock, have you looked at his numbers lately?

 

That was the point of my mentioning that I didn't mean to get into an elaborate analysis of Blalock -- obviously I didn't check him out when I brought him up. I just thought of him as an example of a guy that would produce roughly what J.J. does. Now clearly it was a bad choice, but the point still stands that offense at 3B is far easier to come across than offense at SS. I certainly could go dig for some other (relevant) names, but instead I'll just say 'league-avg. 3B'. I don't really think Escobar is going to force this decision upon the Brewers this season, but if the discussion continues I will be happy to do some digging & find some tangible examples of dudes that could be had.

 

I guess the funny thing to me is that I'm not advocating trading Hardy -- he's absolutely one of my favorite players -- but just trying to point out that Option 1 [Hardy at 3B + Esco at SS] is < Option 2 [Replacement 3B (like logan mentioned, we already have a good platoon in-house) + Esco SS + Return for Hardy in trade]. To me it's puzzling that anyone is really that set against this notion, bc I don't think it's something I've genuis-ly concocted. Just seems like common-sense to me.

[CheezWizHed]

To me it's puzzling that anyone is really that set against this notion, bc I don't think it's something I've genuis-ly concocted. Just seems like common-sense to me.

 

I'm not set against the notion of it happening, just don't think its that easy to implement. My original posts were basically me being puzzled why some people were so set against JJ at 3B (so basically the opposite of the above quote). If it works out that way, great!

 

I also agree that we are one year too soon on this arguement anyway. Escobar should be in AAA for a year (unless he is pounding the ball, then maybe mid-season).

[paul253]

I just wonder who this third basemen is? We havent had a good hitting third basemen in years. Cirillo is the last one I can think of, and he had average to below average power. Yeah Braun was there for most of a season, but his defense was so bad they had to move him. Yeah we have Gamel at third but his defense is worse than Braun's, from what I hear. A platoon of Hall/and Branyon is not good enough. For one, Branyon was hurt most of the year, and Hall cant hit righties for anything. Plus I think Hall is more valuable to us as a utility guy who can spell Weeks and Hardy when they need a break. And if you go with Hall/Branyon at third your offense is identical to what it was last season, which I dont think is good enough, especially considering the pitching is most likely going to be worse.

 

I dont think Escobar is ready to hit at the major league level yet and should be in AAA all year, but after that, I'd like to see them sign Hardy to a long term deal and move him to third. I just dont see this magical third basemen that is going to solve everything. The pickings are certianly slim out there.

[TooLiveBrew]

For one, Branyon was hurt most of the year, and Hall cant hit righties for anything.

 

Branyan wasn't hurt for most of the year, Yost kept him buried on the bench because he was a poor manager. And check the splits -- a platoon of Branyan/Hall would produce All-Star caliber numbers.

[logan82]

Hall cant hit righties for anything

 

Hence the platoon.

[endaround]

If the Brewers sign Hardy to a long term deal its to play SS. If they want a solid 3B sign Glaus or Beltre after this season. Or give Gamel a chance. But Hardy at $12-15m (or more) a year to play 3B is foolish.

[paul253]

Why is that foolish? Its foolish to pay Glaus or Beltre $12 million to play third when their best days are long behind them. If Hardy can hit well enough to play third, which I think he can, whats wrong with putting him there? His value goes down if he plays third.......his value to who? As a Brewer his value goes up because he's playing a position where we havent had a decent player is years, it allows us to bring up a top 3 prospect to play shortstop, and its probably an upgrade defensively at both ends. His trade value goes down......so what, you're not going to trade him so what difference does it make. Besides, its not like a team that trades for cant just move him back to shortstop. Now remember, I'm not saying this should happen this year, as I dont think Escobar is ready to hit MLB pitching, so I suppose if you wanna do the Hall/Branyon thing, you got a year to do that. But that leaves you with the exact same offense as last season, which I dont think is going to cut it.

 

I don't think Gamel is a viable option. I admit I havent ever seen him play, but I have heard his defense is about as bad as it gets. I think he ends up at first replacing Fielder after this season.

 

Branyan wasn't hurt for most of the year

 

My bad, I thought he was on the DL for a good portion of August and September, which is why Counsell got all those at bats.

[logan82]

Branyan only played for part of the year with us. Having him for the full year against righties would help us out quite a bit.

 

We have been hearing mixed reviews on Gamel on defense. He started out bad, but most reports have been that his defense is improving. I would prefer to keep him in AAA next year to learn 1B as well. I don't think Gamel would be a bad temporary replacement for Branyan at 3B if Branyan gets hurt. I am pretty sure Gamel's splits don't indicate he should be platooned(I could be wrong). Since he is a young developing player I would prefer to keep Gamel playing against all pitchers and not have him in a platoon role.