The Trade Corey Hart Topic

[joepepsi]

You are right about Church. He has two more years of arby to go through.

[JohnBriggs12]

What's alarming to me about Hart is how his power completely disappears for long stretches. In 2007, he did not hit his 2nd HR until June 2nd. In 2008, it took him until May 17th to hit his second, then he hit just 1 after August 18th, none at all the entire month of September.

 

I think his problem is he thinks of himself as a speed guy who just needs to get his bat on the ball and run. So he swings at everything. He needs to start thinking like a power hitter, get counts in his favor and look to drive the ball. To me this was Skaalen's biggest failure. He should have been driving home to Corey that he's 6'6" with tremendous leverage. It's a waste to have him up there bunting (he's a terrible bunter on top of it).

 

Bottom line is he's too in love with the speed aspect of his game and unless he learns to adjust his approach, he'll continue to struggle.

[DSFastball55]

I am a big Corey Hart supporter; it would take a lot to pry him away if I was GM. Yeah he struggled mightily down the stretch, but I think it would be a HUGE mistake to give up on him. I expect a big year out of Corey in '09.

[joepepsi]

I think it's pretty wishful to expect a big season from a player who only walked 27 times in 652 plate appearances.

[yoshii8]

I think it's pretty wishful to expect a big season from a player who only walked 27 times in 652 plate appearances.

I don't think its that unrealistic to think that a guy who has had consecutive 20/20 seasons, and an OPS of .892 in 07', could have a big season at the age of 27. If it weren't for that .437 OPS in September, his 08' season would have looked a lot better. I agree that he needs to learn to take a few more walks, but I don't think that we need to give up on a guy that was one of our best hitters for a lot of 07', and parts of 08'.

[Ennder]

I think it's pretty wishful to expect a big season from a player who only walked 27 times in 652 plate appearances.

 

Considering he has never had such a low BB rate at any other point in his career I'd assume it was more of an outlier than anything.

[BrewCrewForever]

Would anyone swap Corey Hart for Edwin Jackson?

Nope. But I would swap something else to obtain Jackson. I have read on various blogs and websites that he may be available this offseason. He does walk to many, but he has flat out electric stuff. Perhaps Maddux could harness his control like he did with McClung.

[sheetskout]

I think you package Hart and Hardy to get an ace. I don't think they could do this to get Peavy, as Hardy replacing Greene in SD is kind of a wash,

 

I would also be very intrigued if a deal would be made for Delmon Young. Maybe Hardy and Hart for Young, Blackburn, and Guerra? I would be stoked with another high ceiling pitching prospect like Guerra. We can't base the future of the rotation on just Jeffress alone. Maybe Odorizzi will surprise....

[Fatter than Joey]

Perhaps Maddux could harness his control like he did with McClung.

 

I think the biggest thing to happen to McClung was that he lost weight and was healthy.

[endaround]

Myths for 600 Alex:

 

This Brewers pitcher people assumed to have mastered his control but still had a BB/9 rate of 4.70 in 2008.

 

Who is Seth McClung? Alex.

[knowitall]

DeJesus is more than an older version of Tony Gwynn! But the trade was just a suggestion anyway, a springboard, if you will.

 

The problem with the Brewers' offense is too many free swinging hacks. Braun can get away with it, but the others, well, they seem unable to adjust when in a funk. In 1500+ plate appearences Hart has walked 86 times. He's a good player but his upside is diminished by this refusal to take a walk. It's a fact, players whose walk rate decrease from season to season don't last long in the majors.

 

I admit that 7 week slump at the end of the year got me to thinking he's the guy they should trade. But that doesn't mean it's the wrong idea. By now the entire league should know he will swing at every low outside pitch. They need to change the tone of the lineup and Hart has the combination of most value and easiest to replace.

Very observant post - I'd like to ad more. Corey Hart had one of the slowest bats I can remember seeing the last two months. He was lunging at the ball with forward movement, which always causes a hitter to start the swing earlier, slows that bat down, and creates an inability to recognize pitches so you swing at balls instead of taking walks or getting good pitches to hit. This all leads to the stat quoted above, and . I believe that he has regressed so far backward with mechanics that he is of little use a the plate anymore until he can change. Since we've seen about three seasons of this approach, there is no reason to believe he can or will change unless the new manager or hitting coach can reach him. I would be willing to give him one more shot because he has had some success, but a VERY SHORT LEASH! I recommend trade, however, if we can get something.

[joepepsi]

Agreed.

 

Hart will be 27 next year, the average age when hitters peak. It's when the combination of talent and major league experience intersect at the highest point. I understand why many want to keep him.

 

But hitters like Hart tend to peak earlier, before age 27. Think Bill Hall or Deivi Cruz. That's because their free swinging, lunging, no adjustment approach doesn't get much benefit from experience. In fact, it's just the opposite. Because these types of hitters refuse to make adjustments to their approach, it's the opposing pitcher who benefits from the experience of facing the hitter.

 

This is why I worry about Braun just a wee bit.

[knowitall]

Yes - same style, but Braun has so much power and bat speed because of his big hack that he should be able to keep producing with extra base hits, while looking bad at times. Just a way better talent than Hart. I think he would really benefit from dropping his hands a little and widening out a little, just to cover the whole field and make better contact, but with numbers like his and no pressure from the club to change him, its unlikely.

[jhpc12]

This is beyond comprehension to me. Ever year Corey has put up the numbers. His walks increased every year except 2008. Through out minor league and his stint in the majors he has always had a strong August and September till this year. So to say that he has already peaked I just don't get. Every time he slumps he gets it turned around to a positive and becomes a better hitter.

 

I do know that he was second on the team in extra base hits. And if he had not had Prince in front of him you could probably add about 10 more XBH and possible 5 to 7 steals to his total, which would have put him in the medium A type player versus the high B as he is listed at now.

 

Trading Corey or JJ IMO would be major step back for this organization. Sign Corey and JJ to a multi year deal, try to reel in CC. Continue to build from within. We have turned the corner with this core. Start trading and we will regress back 4 years when the rebuilding process actually started.

 

And lastly all the way through August Corey was one of the ones everyone on this forum wanted to sign to a long term deal. It's funny what a basic 3 week slump will get you with the fans. I'd take his numbers till September 5th and basically match them with any right fielder in the national league.

[fleehaw]

I figured I'd just resurrect this thread than starting a new one.

 

I look at the Rays and see a good trading partner with the Brewers. If not Fielder, what about Hart? I'd imagine Hart would interest the Rays and fill either the RF or DH spot. Part of their interest would probably depend on whether they resign Badelli.

 

The guy I'm liking more and more I think about it is Willie Aybar. Looking at his fielding % and range factor, he was better defensively than Hall last season. However, it was only 41 games at 3B. I don't know if his range or OOZ were better than Halls. Secondly, Aybar is relatively blocked by Iwamura & Longoria. He could very well be in their DH plans or they could decide to make Iwamura available to cut costs and move him to 2B. That also speaks to Aybar's flexibility. If Gamel sticks at 3B, in '10, Aybar could replace Weeks at 2B if it would improve the team.

 

Back to Hart. Would Hart and a decent prospect (outside P50 top 10) be enough for Jackson & Aybar? There seems to be quite a few options available to replace Hart in the OF. A Swisher for Hall trade perhaps, or Giles. Bottom line is you'd improve you defense and offense at 3B and get a guy with good upside into the rotation.

[Tbadder]

Look, Corey has proved exactly two things: he can be an exciting player who is a joy to watch, and he can be an undisciplined hacker that the league has figured out.

 

Which one are we going to end up with? Ultimately I wouldn't presume to know, but my gut tells me more the latter than the former. The last impression is more persuaive, but many have made mistakes trying to predict a trend.

 

I guess I'm saying I would be open to a trade, but it would have to fill a hole long term (young starting pitcher, young 3B) otherwise I'd hold off and sink or swim with him. It's a tough call indeed.

[Oldcity]

I'm not really interested in Jackson at all. He hasn't been any better than a bunch of the guys who were pitching in the 4/5/6 spots for the Brewers last season.

[Crewin06]

I can't believe it was only 4 short months ago that everybody was saying that there was no way that the Brewer's could trade Corey Hart. And Hart and Braun are the Cornerstones of this franchise. Then Again Prince was also a cornerstone of this franchise once upon a time. The Problem is you can't trade a player when a player is playing well because of the fan backlash and you can't get anything for the player when everyone wants to trade him during a bad stretch.

 

What am I saying, pretty much nothing. I just like making observations.

 

I definitely wouldn't trade Prince or Hart though unless you get what they would have been worth after last season.

 

If we really needed to fix our team I would trade J.J. Hardy for starting pitching and rent a Short Stop for a year and let Alcides earn the spot in 2010. I think you would be selling high on JJ. But then again you would probably get a lot of fan backlash. That's my two cents.

[Ennder]

I expect Hardy to get better again next year and Escobar to take at least 2 years in AAA before his bat is major league ready so I wouldn't trade him.

 

I think it is a bit of a stretch to say the league has figured out Hart, he certainly does need to take more BBs though like he did in the minors. The .058 drop in BABIP had way more to do with the 2nd half OBP than a reduction in BBs. He put up an .834 OPS in august so not like he was miserable that month, the majority of the slump was his .437 OPS september and just an almost complete lack of BBs that never existed in the past for him.

[joepepsi]

I don't think Hart is suddenly terrible. I suspect sometimes he will be an exciting player and fan favorite, and other times he will disappear for weeks on end hacking away at pitches. In other words, he's a lot like a lot of ballplayers, hot streaks mixed in with lows. His hacking tendencies tell me the lows will become frequent and last longer over time. That doesn't mean he's a bad player. You have to trade quality to get quality. I think he's one player the Brewers can afford to part with if they got real value in return. Which I think they would. I don't think they can afford, nor need, to part with Braun, JJ, or Prince at this point.

[Crewin06]

I expect Hardy to get better again next year and Escobar to take at least 2 years in AAA before his bat is major league ready so I wouldn't trade him.

2 years of AAA? Really. Now I am not nieve enough to think that Escobar can jump from AA to the majors and rake right away. And I know that he has trouble working the count, getting walks and is struggling right now in winter ball. However He has hit well over .300 the past two years while being younger for his league plus has speed. Now if that was all that was going to define his playing career I would agree He might spend a couple years in AAA, but from what I hear his glove is going to carry him. I can't really see any situation besides an injury that costs him the whole 2009 season or forgetting how to play baseball in which he isn't on a big league roster in 2010.

[Ennder]

When he comes out and hits like .260 with not enough walks or power in AAA this year I just don't see them bringing him up to start next year. His only offensive skill is AVG and a lot of it has come from bunt singles, I just don't think he is the type you want to rush to the majors.

[fleehaw]

When he comes out and hits like .260 with not enough walks or power in AAA this year I just don't see them bringing him up to start next year. His only offensive skill is AVG and a lot of it has come from bunt singles, I just don't think he is the type you want to rush to the majors.

I agree. Make Escobar's bat force the Brewers hand. I could honestly see Hardy leaving as a FA as opposed to being traded. But I can see him traded or signed to an extension too. It just doesn't seem like he's a forgone conclusion to be traded, as opposed to Fielder (by '10). It's ironic because he's the one with a legitimate replacement in the minors.

[Diskono]

I don't think Hart is suddenly terrible. I suspect sometimes he will be an exciting player and fan favorite, and other times he will disappear for weeks on end hacking away at pitches. In other words, he's a lot like a lot of ballplayers, hot streaks mixed in with lows.

Yep. This has happened with Hart before - I think it was his first year in AAA, he was terrible for the first two months of the season, probably worse than he was toward the end of 2008. I don't have splits to look at, but I seem to remember him taking a month and a half to get his AVG up over .100. He finished the season with a line of .282/.344/.486.

[sheetskout]

Remember when we didn't trade Bill Hall at his high point? I have the same feeling towards Corey Hart.