The Trade Corey Hart Topic

[joepepsi]

It seems to me Corey Hart is the most easily replaceable position player on the team who still has trade value. There's lots of screaming among Brewer fans to trade Weeks or Hall, but seriously, what value would they bring in return?

 

I think Hart, like Hall, is susceptible to the Deivi Syndrome. Named for Deivi Cruz, these are players who put together impressive seasons early in their careers, but their hacking tendencies prevent them from building on that success and within a season or two they have played themselves out of the starting lineup. Hart can be an exciting player to be sure, but his overall rate stats were below average for a corner outfielder. An average corner outfielder must be the easiest position in baseball to fill.

 

The Brewers need another starting pitcher, better production and defense at 3B, and more lefty bats in the everyday lineup. Hart would have value, especially to a rebuilding team, and could be a cornerstone to a deal that would solve at least one of these areas.

 

One possible option would be Hart and a good pitching prospect to the Royals for David DeJesus. Or, a package that includes Hart and Nelson plus prospects for DeJesus and Teahen. Teahen moves back to 3rd and the Brewers have two lefty bats added to the lineup.

[Madtown Bomber]

No offense but PUKE! First off Corey Hart is the true 5 tool player. I've heard old players and scouts call Corey Hart the best baserunner they have ever seen. He has speed, he is going to win a gold glove some day, he has a cannon for a arm, he has modest power, and he can hit for average. Minus for a 7 week period he was pretty good. The only thing you can complain about is his lack of patience at the plate. Lets not give up on him because he had a few bad weeks.

 

Next the trade to the Royals...no way! You can get a lot more for Corey Hart. I would think you can get some legit players for him. Teahan has underachieved to the expectations he had on him and DeJesus could be a older version of Tony Gwynn.

[joepepsi]

DeJesus is more than an older version of Tony Gwynn! But the trade was just a suggestion anyway, a springboard, if you will.

 

The problem with the Brewers' offense is too many free swinging hacks. Braun can get away with it, but the others, well, they seem unable to adjust when in a funk. In 1500+ plate appearences Hart has walked 86 times. He's a good player but his upside is diminished by this refusal to take a walk. It's a fact, players whose walk rate decrease from season to season don't last long in the majors.

 

I admit that 7 week slump at the end of the year got me to thinking he's the guy they should trade. But that doesn't mean it's the wrong idea. By now the entire league should know he will swing at every low outside pitch. They need to change the tone of the lineup and Hart has the combination of most value and easiest to replace.

[dadofandrew]

Corey's value is probably a bit lower than where it should be. I would not deal him unless overwhelmed.

[Gobias Industries]

The Weeks discussion on the ML Forum got me thinking about trading Corey as well. I'd really like to see the team do something drastic this offseason, while keeping the core guys (Braun, Hardy, Fielder, and Gallardo imo).

I think the Orioles match up well with us:

Corey Hart, Alicides Escobar, Brad Nelson, and Zach Braddock for Brian Roberts, Aubrey Huff and Luke Scott.

Why the Orioles do it: If BAL is smart, they completely blow up everything. They made a step in the right direction last offseason, but that team still can't compete in that nasty division. This trade gives you 2 sure things in Hart and Escobar, a cheap 1B to replace Millar, and a good young LHP prospect. A Hart, Jones, Markakis OF is very good right now with plenty of upside. They desperately need a SS; they could still be starting Mike Bordick for all I know.

Why the Brewers do it: If I was the GM, I would immediately decline Cameron's option and tell Weeks to start breaking in a OF glove. I think Rickie could handle CF. It's the routine things that kill him at 2nd, almost all footwork related. Center would allow him to use his number 1 asset, speed. Also, Weeks is an upgrade in OBP over Cam, so we improve on our biggest need there. Roberts would be a 1 year stopgap, but would also net us comp picks, and improve our OBP production from 2B in 08. Luke Scott could take over for Corey in RF. Corey's the better overall player, but Scott is the better OBP guy. I'd only want Huff if he could play 3B. I know now isn't the most opportune time to trade for him after his MVP-ish 08 season, but he fits a need at 3B for this team.

Yes, this trade hurts our OF defense a bit, but Roberts has to be an upgrade over Weeks at 2nd. I think the small drop in defense would easily be offset by the improvement in not making outs at the plate.

[Gobias Industries]

Brian Roberts 2B

Luke Scott RF

Ryan Braun LF

Prince Fielder 1B

JJ Hardy SS

Aubrey Huff 3B

Rickie Weeks CF

Jason Kendall C

 

There is a ton of R/L balance in that lineup. Billy Hall can get some starts all over the diamond against LHP.

[fondybrewfan]

Yeah that is giving up way to much.

 

I think Hart would get us a Jonathon Sanchez type pitcher. What about Hart for Jesse Litsch or Hart & Salome for Grienke? Salome is certainly dispensible at this point IMO. Kendall is back next year and LuCroy could be ready to go by 2010. Hart for Jurrjens?

[Gobias Industries]

Hart and Escobar i don't think so.

If you think Hart is the player he was in 07, I could see your point. I personally think the guy is something between 07 and 08, which makes him replaceable imo.

 

Hardy won me over this year. I would try to lock him up, and moving Escobar or Hardy off of SS is a waste. Escobar's value to the Orioles would be off the charts. Cheap for six years and unlimited potential.

[Gobias Industries]

Yeah that is giving up way to much.

Really? Roberts can turn into two 1st round picks if we didn't resign him. It clearly upgrades our offense, which killed us down the stretch. This years offense was overmatched in the playoffs.

 

I should add if we didn't resign either CC or Sheets, I would offer Derek Lowe a 3 year deal and sign Bob Howry if he didn't require comp picks.

 

Gallardo

Lowe

Parra

Bush

Suppan

[joepepsi]

If you think Hart is the player he was in 07, I could see your point. I personally think the guy is something between 07 and 08, which makes him replaceable imo.

That's my point too. If you're going to do a trade with the Orioles then I want Jeremy Guthrie. I agree the Orioles should blow up the team, retaining only Adam Jones and Nick Markakis. Not sure I'd want Huff playing at 3B everyday though. Scott is a fine player, though he has some platoon issues.

 

I would do some combination of Hart, Braddock, Escobar, and Nelson to get Guthrie and another player; maybe Scott.

 

As an aside, does anyone know if Brad Nelson can actually play a corner outfield position?

[southpaw121505]

I agree about looking to trade Hart, and I love Hart. It would be selling low a bit, but I think some team would fall for his athleticism, speed/power combo and all star status. As for his baserunning, yeah his speed is nice but too often imo is he over aggressive and making dumb plays that result in bad outs. I don't think Hart is as bad as he was down the stretch, but at the same time I've never seen a slump like that. He wasn't just slumping to get a hit or get on base, he was absolutely lost at the plate. It really looked like the verdict was out and he had no clue how to adjust.

 

I think I would go for Joe's original proposal if you believe Tehean can play 3rd. If he can that gives you flexibility with Gamel to play 3rd or right, with Tehean playing the other. You don't do it if you believe Hart will revert to 2007 but I'm not convinced.

 

How about this if you don't think Gamel sticks at 3rd: Dejesus, Tehean & Greinke for Hart, Gamel, Nelson, Gwynn...Would suck to give up Gamel and LaPorta in the same year but if you want to value defense and pitching more it might be necessary. Greinke, Gallardo, Parra looks awfully nice for years and I'm sure they'll save a spot for Mr. Jeffress in a few years.

[ILuvDaBush]

I'm just hoping Corey comes back next year on a mission defensively (I still remember the misplayed ball at Miller Park in a preseason exhibition). He could be unreal defensively, robbing HR's and Texas leaguers, but instead, he's not so good. Honestly, I still think we trade JJ before Corey, as he is probably the most highly valued commodity we would trade (I seriously don't think Prince is out there).

 

Player A: .290/.350/.450 ('06 numbers)

 

best season line: .305/.405/.490 (this year)

 

Player B: .275/.325/.485 (career numbers)

 

best season line: .295/.355/.540 (last year)

 

By the way, Player B also steals bases at almost twice the clip as Player A. 30 SB's in 1723AB's vs. 53 in 1412AB's.

 

I would undoubtedly rather have Corey Hart over Nick Markakis.

[joepepsi]

I would undoubtedly rather have Corey Hart over Nick Markakis.

I am a lifelong Orioles fan. The only reason I have ExtraInnings is so I can watch the Orioles. I went to two baseball games this year, the Orioles played in both.

 

At the start of the season I would have agreed with you. In fact I argued it on an Orioles forum in the Spring. I no longer believe it. Markakis is a wonderful player. He's a fantastic RF'er, maybe the best in the AL. It's true Corey seems to have more power and speed, but Nick drew 99 walks and hit 48 doubles with 20 homers. He's nearly the perfect 3 hole hitter. He's a lefty. Imagine if he had been hitting 2nd this season for the Brewers, followed by Braun, Prince, and JJ.

 

He's played 3 seasons and his OPS has gone from .799 to .847 to .897. Only Hardy has shown that kind of growth among the young Brewers. Markakis doesn't turn 25 until next month. Hart will be 27 in Spring training, so he's essentially two years older.

 

Markakis is probably not a HOF'er, but he's built perfect for a long career and if he develops more power he could put up the counting stats that will get him there. He impresses me as a very smart player, whereas Hart doesn't seem that way at all.

[BrewCrewForever]

DeJesus could be a older version of Tony Gwynn.

 

I would trade Hart for DeJesus and another player in a heartbeat. To say DeJesus is an older TGJ is not correct in my opinion. Look at the numbers he put up last season for KC:

 

.307/.366/.452 that is an OPS of 818. That is darn good for a CF who bats leadoff. TGJ could never put up that OPS. DeJesus had 12 HR as well last year and drove in 73. I would love that in the leadoff spot. And he is only 28.

[fleehaw]

.307/.366/.452 that is an OPS of 818. That is darn good for a CF who bats leadoff. TGJ could never put up that OPS. DeJesus had 12 HR as well last year and drove in 73. I would love that in the leadoff spot. And he is only 28.

And signed for 3 more years at a very team-friendly rate.

[BrewCrewForever]

.307/.366/.452 that is an OPS of 818. That is darn good for a CF who bats leadoff. TGJ could never put up that OPS. DeJesus had 12 HR as well last year and drove in 73. I would love that in the leadoff spot. And he is only 28.

And signed for 3 more years at a very team-friendly rate.

I forgot about that, another good reason to try to trade for DeJesus. He would be a nice catalyst at the top of our order getting on for our RBI guys. And he himself has a little pop which is nice.

[billyhallfan]

i'm all for bringing in dejesus, i think they should try to get teahen and greinke as well...teahen could be somewhat of a platoon/stopgap player at third, or at least a good bat off the bench, though he had a bad year this past season, had a .350 obp the two before that...but i was never thinking of giving up hart, that is baffling, the guy had a bad stretch, and now everyone wants him gone? he has produced every single year, and he has one tough stretch, and people think he isn't the talent that he is? it just doesn't make sense to me, i think he would have a lot of trade value, but i don't want to see them use it

[Gobias Industries]

I don't want Hart gone because he had a bad stretch. I made a thread in the middle of August about dealing him this offseason. If he's a + 850 OPS player, year in and year out, sure, fine with me, keep him. If he could play a decent CF I would love to lock him up. I don't think he's either right now. Maybe the league has caught up to his tee ball approach.

 

The only way I want to see him traded this offseason is for Greinke (No way Royals do that straight up) or for a package that includes Brian Roberts and moves Weeks to CF.

 

Roberts, Guthrie, and Scott for Hart, Escobar, Nelson, and Braddock. If we could have some sort of under the table agreement with Hardy on a long term deal, trading Escobar right now wouldn't be a bad idea. His value is sky high right now, and the only way it ever gets higher is if he proves he can hit at an above average level in the ML, and there's just no way you can count on that imo.

[southpaw121505]

I doubt they trade Escobar for anything other than a Lincecum type. And why would a Hardy deal have to be under the table?

[Gobias Industries]

I doubt they trade Escobar for anything other than a Lincecum type. And why would a Hardy deal have to be under the table?

I'd assume they'd lose some leverage if Hardy was signed. Only one option (Escobar) for the trading partner.

[billyhallfan]

i still wouldn't give up hart AND Escobar, just because you have depth doesn't mean you trade it away

[Ennder]

For DeJesus keep in mind his development has been slowed down by injuries and he was supposed to be the player from 2008 eventually. However looking at his splits scares me a little and he had 3 pretty terrible months and then 2 incredibly hot ones and his BABIP was a good bit higher than his career rates. I could easily see some regression out of DeJesus next year.

 

I still think selling Hart right now is bad timing. He is a better player than he showed in 2008, he just isn't as good as 2007. I don't know what happened in the second half to see his BB tank so much but his BB rate was acceptable in the minors so I'd expect them to at least rebound some in the majors with experience. Remember that 2008 was Hart's first full season.

 

I think Hart for DeJesus is a pretty fair trade and it might help our team since it adds a LH to the team but I'm not sold that Hart isn't going to be the better player of the two.

[southpaw121505]

I don't know what happened in the second half to see his BB tank so much

You have to take a minimum of 4 pitches to draw a walk...

[ILuvDaBush]

Or "take one for the team." Unfortunately, Prince and Big Rick are the only team players on the Brewers.

[joepepsi]

...but i was never thinking of giving up hart, that is baffling, the guy had a bad stretch, and now everyone wants him gone? he has produced every single year, and he has one tough stretch, and people think he isn't the talent that he is? it just doesn't make sense to me, i think he would have a lot of trade value, but i don't want to see them use it

It's not about punishing or dumping Hart. You have to trade value to get value. I see and hear a lot about trading Suppan, Hall, Weeks; but really, none of those guys would bring you much of anything. Hart has value now, plus he's shown a lot of potential, plus he'd be easier to replace than someone like Hardy or Prince.