Am I the only one who still isn't ready to give up on Rickie Weeks?

[cwolf2012]

Ennder, would you say that OPS+ is more or less (or equally) valid when used as a team stat compared to its use as an individual stat?

 

EDIT: I tried to phrase the question as neutrally as possible. I don't like using the word "valid," but I couldn't think of a better substitute.

[Ennder]

Ennder, would you say that OPS+ is more or less (or equally) valid when used as a team stat compared to its use as an individual stat?

 

EDIT: I tried to phrase the question as neutrally as possible. I don't like using the word "valid," but I couldn't think of a better substitute.

 

I think it works better on a team level for a couple of reasons. First off OPS is better when you have a smaller range of OBP and SLG outcomes. The flaw in OPS itself is more pronounced at the extremes. A .300 OBP, .500 SLG OPS of .800 is significantly worse than a .400 OBP, .400 SLG, .800 OPS but at a team level you never see those extremes.

 

The park factors the way they are used also work much better when you are using a large sample of players for the same basic reasons.

[cwolf2012]

That is pretty much exactly what I expected you to say. And I agree. Thank you.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Rickie Weeks = Delmon Young. Lots of potential, but hasn't even come close to it yet. Do the Brewers want to stay with Weeks and see if he can fill out the potential? I'm not sure, but I think I would stick with him for one more year.

[RockCoCougars]

Weeks is what he is. For his salary and considering he plays second base, I'll take a chance for at least one year that he might at least partially break out. It would be terribly frustrating to see him go somewhere else and flourish. Now if he could only stop making errors at the worst possible times....

[ILuvDaBush]

I say we let Rickie protect Prince in the lineup next year. Rickie has always been misplayed as a leadoff hitter. Let him finally swing away in the five-hole. His numbers, outside of slugging, have always seemed Pat Burrell-like, and given the FACT that Prince Fielder will be on-base a lot, he should see a good diet of fastballs. As for giving up on him, I don't see how you can. His offense is very good for the position, and his tool box overflows. Much like our neighbors to the south, we're forced to watch something we hope will improve, despite what we logically know will not. But honestly...higher OBP than Braun. Better question, am I the only one who HAS given up on the Braun SB?

[jhart05]

I say we let Rickie protect Prince in the lineup next year. Rickie has always been misplayed as a leadoff hitter.

 

 

I would actually like to see it be Weeks-Fielder-Braun. Because Weeks and Fielder will have better OBPs than Braun.

 

But, unless they can find a leadoff hitter, I don't think that's possible. Besides them and you can throw Hardy in there, the rest of the players shouldn't be hitting any higher than 6th at best.

[Invader3K]

Would Weeks really be "protecting Fielder" by batting behind him? I never get suggestions like that.

[GAME05]

sorry if i'm restating a previous point, but we talk about Weeks' OBP and SLG and the like compared to other 2b, but batting order really has to be taken into account. Leadoff is unnatural for Weeks, and so how much has that change in approach vs., say, the 7 spot, effected his numbers to what they might otherwise be? since he's more of a first-pitch guy, i just think that a different spot in the order would see a drop in OBP but a significant increase in his other numbers, leading to a better overall offensive player.

 

I'll rip on his D along with anyone, but i just think that offensively, he sometimes gets knocked for not being the hitter that he was never really meant to be.

[rluzinski]

since he's more of a first-pitch guy

 

What makes you say that? I think the complete opposite is true.

[ILuvDaBush]

When I mentioned protection, I did so in regards to Hart's inability to take a walk. With a flailer behind him, Prince couldn't be as selective, knowing the person behind him wouldn't let him take the easy stroll to second. With Weeks behind him, you would imagine we would see more back-to-back walks, with Mike Cameron/3B offseason target batting behind them in the six-hole. Prince may clog the basepaths, curbing Rickie's SB's, but, God forbid, Prince were to record an out while Braun and Weeks got a hit and took a walk, respectively, our new manager could have some fun on the basepaths. Does anyone else wonder if he hurt himself last offseason, and it *@!!*$%* his ability to steal bases? I understand he's a power hitter, but his speed was always what excited me. If he were to give the impression he might take a base, perhaps Prince would see more FB's instead of the slider away in the dirt.

[joepepsi]

I say we let Rickie protect Prince in the lineup next year. Rickie has always been misplayed as a leadoff hitter.

 

 

I would actually like to see it be Weeks-Fielder-Braun. Because Weeks and Fielder will have better OBPs than Braun.

 

But, unless they can find a leadoff hitter, I don't think that's possible. Besides them and you can throw Hardy in there, the rest of the players shouldn't be hitting any higher than 6th at best.

I like that lineup. Trade Hart or Escobar + a middling prospect or two for David DeJesus. Bat DeJesus leadoff, then Weeks-Fielder-Braun-Hardy. The Brewers might lead the league in 1st inning runs.

[Invader3K]

I like that lineup. Trade Hart or Escobar + a middling prospect or two for David DeJesus. Bat DeJesus leadoff, then Weeks-Fielder-Braun-Hardy. The Brewers might lead the league in 1st inning runs.

Doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. I believe it would be a definite improvement over this season's production. Does anyone know if DeJesus is actually going to be available? Seems like his name gets thrown around a lot on this forum.

[jhart05]

If the decision comes down to trading Hardy or Escobar, I believe Hardy will be the one to go if he does not agree with moving to 3B.

 

If for no other reason than salary. They will think they can get similar production out of Escobar for obviously much less money. And what Escobar lacks in the power department compared to Hardy, they will rationalize that by the extra defense Escobar gives them.

 

But I really hope Hardy sees, him moving to 3B, is for the greater good of the team.

 

In 2010, I would really like to see what an infield of 1B Gamel, 2B Weeks, SS Escobar, and 3B Hardy, can do.

 

Trade Fielder to the AL for a #2 caliber starter after the 2009 season, because I don't think Escobar or Gamel are ready yet, and make a serious run at the pennant in 2010. Provided of course that Gallardo and Parra develop into legitimate 1 and 2 starters, the Brewers think they can be.

[clancyphile]

I say we let Rickie protect Prince in the lineup next year. Rickie has always been misplayed as a leadoff hitter.

 

 

I would actually like to see it be Weeks-Fielder-Braun. Because Weeks and Fielder will have better OBPs than Braun.

 

But, unless they can find a leadoff hitter, I don't think that's possible. Besides them and you can throw Hardy in there, the rest of the players shouldn't be hitting any higher than 6th at best.

I like that lineup. Trade Hart or Escobar + a middling prospect or two for David DeJesus. Bat DeJesus leadoff, then Weeks-Fielder-Braun-Hardy. The Brewers might lead the league in 1st inning runs.

How about Hall-for-DeJesus? DeJesus, though, mostly played LF/RF this year. Getting him means Cameron stays in center, and Braun's gonna get bumped to third.

 

OK, he can't be worse than Hall was at third this year...

 

Probably a VERY steep deal, but the Brewers have Salome, Rottino, and Lawrie at catcher in the system.

 

lf: DeJesus

2b: Weeks

ss: Hardy

1b: Fielder

3b: Braun

cf: Cameron

rf: Hart

c: Kendall

[lukevan]

Why would the Royals take Hall for DeJesus?

And dude, Braun isn't going back to 3B... ever.

[Invader3K]

Why would the Royals take Hall for DeJesus?

And dude, Braun isn't going back to 3B... ever.

Yeah...that would be...well, insane, really. He went from having 20+ errors at 3B to having an "error free" season in LF.

[RockCoCougars]

Why does everyone here want David DeJesus? He seems pretty underwhelming to me. He's almost 30 years old and hasn't really accomplished anything in the bigs. No way would I trade Hart for him. Yes Hart stunk the second half..... but over his career, he's been better than DeJesus in every aspect of the game. Plus he's three years younger. DeJesus seems to have replaced Coco Crisp as the overrated CF that people here want.

[Ennder]

Something like Hall and Hart for DeJesus and someone might make some sense to the Royals with us picking up someone like Crede at 3B. Not sure if there is a player that makes that make sense for the Brewers though.

[lukevan]

[DeJesus] hasn't really accomplished anything in the bigs.

 

Well, DeJesus put up this line in 2008:

 

.307 .366 .452 .818

 

That's batting average looks real nice playing 140 games for the Crew next year and his OBP would've been behind only Fielder for regulars. He has maintained a high BA and a .360-ish OBP for 5 seasons now so you can be somewhat sure about what you're getting. He's signed relatively cheaply possibly through 2011 with a club option for that season. My only question is would he be good enough defensively in CF to start out there full-time?

[RockCoCougars]

Well, DeJesus put up this line in 2008:

 

.307 .366 .452 .818

 

That's batting average looks real nice playing 140 games for the Crew next year and his OBP would've been behind only Fielder for regulars. He has maintained a high BA and a .360-ish OBP for 5 seasons now so you can be somewhat sure about what you're getting.

Last year, he hit about 25 points above his career average. Plus he had only 44 extra base hits, Hart had 81. No way is DeJesus an upgrade over Hart. Going further, he's not the most patient hitter either. Over his career, he's only walked once per 11 or so plate appearances. That rate is not much better than Hart's.

 

I'm starting to worry that Hart's terrible second half is jading people's perceptions of him. I guarantee that Kansas City would do a DeJesus /Hart trade in a second.

[lukevan]

I'd likely be playing DeJesus in CF instead of Cameron alongside Hart in RF; I don't think I'd trade Hart for DeJesus either. I'm not really comparing the two, just taking umbrage with the idea that DeJesus isn't a good player.

 

Though, if teams have "figured out" Hart, we may already have seen the best of him. He sure seemed to be fooled by the same pitches all year.

[joepepsi]

Everytime I try and post to this topic the site crashes!

 

 

edit: well except this time I guess. Anyway, three times today I've attempted to reply to the DeJesus/Hart debate and each time an error comes up when I click to submit. I haven't the strength to look up all the numbers again!