Am I the only one who still isn't ready to give up on Rickie Weeks?

[zzzmanwitz]

Utley had only ~500 ABs or so before he "broke out", Weeks has ~1675 -- I think this is an apples and oranges comparison.

 

Actually, if you combine major league and minor league numbers, Utley had 2039 ABs before he broke out. Weeks has had 2386 ABs in his career (majors and minors).

[jhart05]

I wouldn't call myself a BIG Rickie Weeks fan, but I do like the guy.

 

He will be only 26 years old when the season starts next year. No way would I want to trade a guy, just entering the "prime years" of his career, for some guy in his early to mid-30s.

 

Take a look at his career OBP (.352), and that's after a down year of only (.342). Now go take a look at the league average for leadoff hitters in the NL this year (.342). The Brewers could do a lot worse if they have him batting leadoff again next year.

 

I'd still like to see him in either the 1 or 2 spots in the order, because he does work the count, he walks a decent amount, has some speed, and because I don't think they will be able to find anyone better to leadoff. If they do happen to find a good leadoff hitter who can play CF not named TGJ, great, then put Weeks in the 2 spot. I think he can bat .250 and have a .370 OBP next year, pretty easily. I just wouldn't want to waste that OBP (no offense #7 hitter, Jason Kendall, and pitcher) down in the 6 hole.

[Diskono]

At age 25, Chase Utley was a less-accomplished hitter than Rickie Weeks is now (Weeks was 25 this season), and then broke out at age 26.

 

Utley had only ~500 ABs or so before he "broke out", Weeks has ~1675 -- I think this is an apples and oranges comparison.

Not really, Utley spent a lot more time in the minors. I don't know what the major league equivalents of Utley's 2+ seasons in AAA were, but I'd imagine they were pretty close to (if not a little bit behind) what Weeks did in his first couple of seasons in the majors.

[Fear The Chorizo]

I'm fine with keeping Rickie with the team and hoping he finally puts it together, as long as he's not forced to hit leadoff next season. The problem is that this team desperately needs a leadoff hitter, and the position Rickie plays is ideal for leadoff hitters.

 

I remember many scouts saying at the time Weeks was drafted that he's better suited to play in the outfield - any possibility that the Brewers tempt fate and move him to center, forget Cam's option, and bring in a 2B who can hit leadoff and play better defense than Weeks did in the IF? I know it didn't work well for Hall, but Tampa did pretty well by getting Upton out there.

 

I like his approach at the plate, but I don't like his plate coverage - he stands practically on the plate, but it still seems like he can't do much with pitches on the outer half. I wouldn't mind seeing him forget the bat waggle and quiet his hands down, too- I think he'd be great if he simply let his hands react instead of needing a timing mechanism to be just right in order to hit the ball with authority.

[Fatter than Joey]

No way would I want to trade a guy, just entering the "prime years" of his career, for some guy in his early to mid-30s.

 

I would. TGJ is entering the "prime years" of his career, I would trade his unlimited, -- nay, infinite unbounded potential for a more established presence -- I don't know why we couldn't sacrifice a little "potential" for something more guaranteed.

 

Actually, if you combine major league and minor league numbers, Utley had 2039 ABs before he broke out. Weeks has had 2386 ABs in his career (majors and minors).

 

Why would I want to do that? -- Weeks has had 1600 ML ABs, and his numbers declined this year across the board. I think if Weeks were to break out, I think he'd have done it by now. I don't know why we keep comparing to Weeks to Phillips and/or Utley -- First, (speaking offensively) Phillips is not that super, he hits a few more HRs -- but I don't think he is going to hit 30 jacks ever again, and I am not sure Weeks "improving to Phillips" is that exciting. Weeks is not anywhere near the player Utley is -- nor is he going to be. It is just as likely he could become Mark Bellhorn.

 

That said, he is cheap, and the Brewers don't have a super sexy option to replace his matador defense, so I wouldn't want to DFA him.

[JohnBriggs12]

He's one of the few on the team that held up down the stretch offensively. I still don't understand why he's not tried in CF though. He just can't be counted on defensively in key situations at second base. Of the current roster, he's still the best leadoff option but I think he's better off mentally down in the order. That's why they have to find a leadoff hitter.

[Fatter than Joey]

I still don't understand why he's not tried in CF though.

 

Agreed -- I could totally get behind trying Weeks out in CF. I would be borderline giddy if they tried it.

[joepepsi]

His power and on base rates are better through age 25 than Brian Roberts'. Let's face it; on a good team Rickie would have stayed in the minors at least another half season, if not another year or two. He only had about 850 minor league plate appearances before being called up.

 

I think his speed is wasted in the 6th or 7th spot. I'd like to see him bat 2nd. I have no idea who could be that lefty leadoff guy the Brewers need, but with Rickie second and Braun third, I have to think Weeks' numbers would jump.

 

I think the guy they should trade is Corey Hart. Package him and a pitcher to KC for David DeJesus. Bat DeJesus lead off.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Is it possibly time to stop comparing Weeks' offensive numbers to other second basemen at similar ages? I don't take much stock in that because I don't view Weeks as being a second basemen long term. I agree that Weeks was rushed through the minors because there was nothing in front of him at 2nd base talent-wise, and I wish the organization took a step back at the time to evaluate where he could best fit defensively in the majors instead of preaching "the bat will play". So far, Weeks has played but has forgotten to bring his bat with him for prolonged stretches.

 

I see tons of offensive comparisons to Utley, Phillips, and Roberts at similar ages to what Weeks currently is. Honestly, Weeks couldn't hold any of their jocks defensively when they were his age - 2B is one of the few remaining positions where defense should be a priority, and Weeks is a liability there. Good defensive 2B don't have stones for hands. Even if he develops into an average defensive 2B, he needs to be much more productive offensively to justify keeping him there.

[Diskono]

Actually, if you combine major league and minor league numbers, Utley had 2039 ABs before he broke out. Weeks has had 2386 ABs in his career (majors and minors).

 

Why would I want to do that? -- Weeks has had 1600 ML ABs, and his numbers declined this year across the board. I think if Weeks were to break out, I think he'd have done it by now. I don't know why we keep comparing to Weeks to Phillips and/or Utley -- First, (speaking offensively) Phillips is not that super, he hits a few more HRs -- but I don't think he is going to hit 30 jacks ever again, and I am not sure Weeks "improving to Phillips" is that exciting. Weeks is not anywhere near the player Utley is -- nor is he going to be. It is just as likely he could become Mark Bellhorn.

The point is that when Utley was at Weeks' age/experience level, he didn't look like he was anywhere near the player that present-day Utley is either. We're not talking about some late-round organizational soldier or AAAA player here - Weeks was a #2 overall pick and about as highly-regarded as a prospect can get, he's hit at every level of the minors, and has shown flashes of that huge potential in the majors. It's not at all unreasonable to think that he might actually hit the way he's always been projected to. Some players are late bloomers. I'm not saying he WILL be great, but to say that he has no chance is kind of silly.

[Invader3K]

I think people have gradually lowered their expectations on Weeks. He's been in the majors for three and a half years now, basically. I think we know what we have with the guy, basically. He's not a horrible player, but I don't think he's going to be the perennial All-Star some were predicting when he came up, either.

 

I am not opposed to seeing the Brewers trade him...I just think it's silly to talk about DFA-ing him or trading him for a bag of balls. He still has some value, I imagine.

[craigharmann]

Why not put Rickie in center, put Escobar at 2nd, and you've got a couple of problems solved. Just my thought. Rickie couldn't be any worse than Bill Hall in center, could he?

[thebruce44]

His power and on base rates are better through age 25 than Brian Roberts'. Let's face it; on a good team Rickie would have stayed in the minors at least another half season, if not another year or two. He only had about 850 minor league plate appearances before being called up.

 

The Brewers had every right to call him up and run Spivey off. In 55 games, he was OPSing 1.090 as a 22 yr old 2B in AAA and at the time looked like he was going to keep getting better and better. The front office had no way of knowing he would be injury prone and streaky once he got to the majors.

[Invader3K]

I don't think saying they "ran Spivey off" is correct, either. They traded him for Tomo Ohka, who was pretty servicable as a Brewers starter for a while.

[jhart05]

If TGJ sees any significant playing time on this team next year, they are in trouble.

 

 

 

Why not put Rickie in center, put Escobar at 2nd, and you've got a couple of problems solved.

 

 

They will not move Escobar to 2B, because doing so would be a waste of his ridiculous range at short, plus he's not ready to hit in the Majors yet. Where Hardy, although he is a good SS, we know he has somewhat limited range for the position.

 

So Hardy, if he can keep hitting 20 HRs a year, just screams "move me to 3B". He has limited range, but good hands, and a great arm.

 

By the end of next year or at least the start of 2010, I'd like to see an infield of: 1B-Fielder, 2B-Weeks, SS-Escobar, 3B-Hardy. If Fielder is gone by 2010, then Mat Gamel plays 1B.

 

 

With Weeks, I think it will depend upon what the Brewers can find. If they can get a guy who can leadoff and play 2B, Weeks may be moved to CF. But if they get a leadoff CFer, then Weeks stays where he's at.

[jhart05]

Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but what makes people think TGJ would make a good leadoff hitter in the Majors?

 

He has a career .345 OBP in the minors, in 569 games and 2,500 plate appearances. That's not "small sample size" anymore.

 

Where is "rulzinski" to tell us what that would translate into, in the majors?

[Invader3K]

I don't know why anyone would think Gwynn will make a solid offensive starter at this point at all. He really doesn't seem to fit in the Brewers' plans at all, so I'm not sure why he's even being discussed. Maybe his last name still holds some allure to some people. I would guess he ends up getting traded this winter in a package deal, if anything.

[craigharmann]

They will not move Escobar to 2B, because doing so would be a waste of his ridiculous range at short

But wouldn't that be an asset, considering Prince's butchery at first? Escobar's range could make up for Prince's lack of range.

[JJHardy7]

But wouldn't that be an asset, considering Prince's butchery at first? Escobar's range could make up for Prince's lack of range.

 

As long as Prince is at 1B, it will negate to a certain extent any defensive positives the defense may have. Prince is just a bad 1B and will eventually be in the AL. If the plan is to move Prince in say 2 years, why waste Escobar at 2B? I still think Hardy at 3b, Escobar at SS, and Weeks/FA/Trade/Maybe Green? in 2010. Escobar isn't ready to be playing everyday given some of the constraints the offense already has.

 

There's no need to rush Escobar. I do find it interesting that some have complained about rushing Weeks up -- wouldn't this be the same thing for Escobar? AA to Bigs is a pretty big jump. Keep Escobar in AAA and he'll be up eventually in 2009 if there's an injury or he's flat out raking.

[bjkrautk]

Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but what makes people think TGJ would make a good leadoff hitter in the Majors?

Gwynn Jr.'s skillset (contact hitter, speed) fit the role of a leadoff hitter. The problem is his skills aren't....well...good enough to be an everyday hitter, regardless of position. I'm willing to accept a leadoff guy who just gets on base for the heart of the lineup, but without a .360+ OBP, he needs to have a SLG that's at least comparable to OBP. (Even going that far, I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority.)

 

TGJ is good enough defensively to be a 5th OF / pinch runner, but isn't going to be a starter unless he turns into a .300 hitter, starts taking walks more often, or develops some extra-base pop. At this point, it's hard to expect any one of those things to happen.

 

 

Going back to Weeks, I'd like to see the Brewers hold on to him for at least one more year, but bring in someone to split time (non-platoon) with him. From an outsider's perspective, Rickie always seems to have his most productive times after the team lights a fire under his backside (demotion to AAA, Durham trade, etc.). I don't know whether it's because he benefits from splitting time, or because he needs the motivation, but it has worked in the past.

[jackalope02ca]

To clarify it was a big mistake drafting him. I'm not sure what potential everyone is talking about. He's regressing folks not progressing. To compare him to Utley is ridiculous. We have shown we are a playoff team and should be in contention for the next few year. Let Kansas City try to develop him. We don't have time to develop right now. Trade him for an established player. Besides salary is going to dictate that some have to go rather soon and he's not one I'd be interested in keeping long term. I'd rather try to find a way to keep Hardy even if it means putting him in a new position.

[pete]

I'll bet you could go back a year and get opinions just like those that defend Rickie this year. He's a whole lot of average and cheap. That's a good argument, but you have to accept that he is affected by pressure. Why so much trouble turning a double play after years and years of practice? I remember when the chatter by Yost and the coaches was to get him to quit sidearming his throws. They obviously gave up on that.

 

 

 

I think the only hope for him turning it around is if the Yost effect was a detriment. His unconditional love and unwillingness to hold him accountable for anything may have been a negative.

 

 

 

You wouldn't be "wasting" anything by playing Escobar at 2nd for a year or so. I wish people would say the real reason they don't want a young kid to play at 2nd.

 

 

 

I've yet to see someone do an honest breakdown of JJ's range either. People just look up a flawed statistic and declare him bad. He makes plays on the other side of 2nd and in left field. Hall often ranged too far to his left and interfered with plays. That negatively affects JJ's defensive ratings. If people want the rating to go up, the answer isn't to get rid of JJ. How does he rate in OOZ? Can a player do really well at that and have poor range? The answer is no.

[zzzmanwitz]

To compare him to Utley is ridiculous.

 

We aren't saying he will be as good as Utley. Utley is the best 2B in the game. We are saying that there are recent examples of above average 2Bs taking a few years to develop into the players that they are (Utley, Phillips, Roberts). Also, the fact of the matter is, Weeks has pretty much been an average offensive player for his position. It seems like we are expecting him to be an allstar player every year, and that hasn't panned out to this point. He definitely has the talent to become a perrenial allstar, but it may take a few years still.

 

Weeks also has the tools to be a great defender at 2B, and I personally believe that will happen. Utley never was a great defender until this year. Players have the ability to improve. Weeks is only 25.

[Gobias Industries]

To clarify it was a big mistake drafting him. I'm not sure what potential everyone is talking about. He's regressing folks not progressing.

The Brewers would have been the laughingstock of the league if they passed on Weeks after the Rays took Young. I doubt any team in the league would have done so.

 

He certainly had a down year this year, but you can't just say he's definitely regressing. The same for Corey Hart. Go look at Pat Burrell's stats in 2003. He was improving from 2000 to 2002, and then out of nowhere put up a terrible line of .209/.309/.404 in 2003. Many people said he was a bust, and he turned out to be just fine.

 

Rickie improved every year from 2005 to 2007. Sure, he underpeformed this year. But I see no reason to believe he's gonna continue to get worse. His second half line this year .263/.378/.451 isn't too far out there.

[JJHardy7]

You wouldn't be "wasting" anything by playing Escobar at 2nd for a year or so. I wish people would say the real reason they don't want a young kid to play at 2nd.

 

Why would you move Escobar to 2nd for a year or so and then move him back to SS? That would not be developing his skills and he could come back at SS worse and it could take time for him to get back to where he was. I hate the notion of moving guys all around. It hinders development at whatever the final position is.

 

I've yet to see someone do an honest breakdown of JJ's range either. People just look up a flawed statistic and declare him bad. He makes plays on the other side of 2nd and in left field. Hall often ranged too far to his left and interfered with plays. That negatively affects JJ's defensive ratings. If people want the rating to go up, the answer isn't to get rid of JJ. How does he rate in OOZ? Can a player do really well at that and have poor range? The answer is no.

 

JJ should be at 3b in the future. If you're so willing to move him to 2b, you'll have to convince JJ to make less money when his contract is up or over pay for Hardy to play 2b. There's no way JJ is going to accept the move there without being paid like a SS. I personally think it's more difficult to find a 3b (see the Brewers the past few years) than it is to find an average 2b. There's a lot of moving parts in this thing (what the Brewers do or don't do with Hall, Weeks, etc in terms of trades and what the Brewers really think about Gamel at 3b), but Hardy seems to profile pretty well at 2b and I would not want to hinder Escobar's defensive development by using him at a position for a year or so and then move him back to SS.