Rosenthal says Hardy likely to be traded.

[yount19.u]

The Brewers would be making a huge mistake by trading away Hardy. He is the exact type of player this team needs. He's solid fundamentally on defense and offense and he's shown steady progress every year. His only negatives are his lack of speed and walks, but he has shown the ability to get on base this year. Unless Escobar is sure to be a better all around player than Hardy, I would rather see Escobar get traded if they were forced to make a choice. Although I do think they can convince JJ to move to third, where he will be just as good.

[pete]

Keep Hardy at SS and put Escobar at 2nd if he comes up right away. That would be a thing of beauty. It wouldn't "waste" Escobar or affect his ceiling as if that should matter. Tell Prince to lose 40 lbs or so in the offseason. You can't determine 3rd without knowing what the organization truly thinks of Gamel. As much as everybody seems to have determined that he has little chance to succeed there and that statements put out by people like Don Money are disinformation, he may be the 3rd base of the future. If not there are a lot of different ways to go rather than shoehorning JJ there because everyone is so excited at seeing Escobar they demand that he play at the most demanding postition.

 

 

 

You could play doubles defense all the time and have an awesome infield.

 

 

 

Escobar can move to SS eventually and the sun will still rise if he spends a year or so at 2nd. Would it really be so bad to have great defense at 2nd along with speed on the bases and a solid contact hitter?

[BrewCrewForever]

Although I do think they can convince JJ to move to third, where he will be just as good.

 

Agreed, not that Hardy is in their category but A-Rod and Ripken did the same thing and were fine. I'm sure JJ can do it and he can produce enough on offense to be a 3B. Plus the idea of how good the defense would be on that side of the infield with JJ and Escobar would be awesome.

[statman0007]

I used to be firmly against the idea of Hardy moving to third because his above average offense at SS becomes average at 3B. The more I think of it, though, the Brewers already have plenty of slugging, which is what a 3B traditionally supplies.

 

Plus, like others have said, the idea of Hardy and Escobar playing that of the infield together is tantalizing. Hardy's weakness at defense is range which isn't as important at 3B. And he definitely has the arm strength for it. Let's see it happen.

[Oldcity]

The fact of the matter is, if Hardy is not going to be the Brewers' shortstop his highest value to the team comes in the form of a trade, not as a third baseman. The goal is to maximize each player's value.

[jjfanec]

Hardy would not have been an average 3B this year with his bat. He would have had the 8th highest OPS in MLB. It is the lower than the 4th best OPS he had for SS, but definitely well above average. It really depends on what you could get for Hardy to decide what would be his best value. A stable, solid 3B is worth a lot and this team should know that after having to start Counsel this year.

[Diggr14]

If Hardy was given a 4 year deal.. to buy up the rest of his arbitration plus a few years... why wouldnt he mind moving to 2b or 3b. Logically he will end up at one or the other in his career anyhow.

[yoshii8]

Diggr14, I think he doesn't want to move because he's played SS his whole life, and that is his best position, also the fact that he will get paid more as a shortstop. Why do you think he's going to end up playing 2nd or 3rd?

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

If Hardy was moved to 2B or 3B by the Brewers for a year or two, would that preclude another team from acquiring him to move him back to SS? Would he retain that SS premium for himself and the Brewers? I don't see why not.

 

A league average 3B would be a big improvement over what we had this year...Hall was a disaster. We may go from an above average SS and a well below average 3B to an average 3B (Hardy) & an average SS (Escobar)...with an improvement in the defense. That doesn't seem that bad of an option for 2010.

[ILuvDaBush]

If we're going to move JJ to another position, perhaps we should move him to one he has played before. I nominate JJ Hardy be moved to the mound and become our closer for 2009.

[kwelak21]

I don't think I have read this anywhere on here, but I have heard through some sources that if Hardy doesn't move to third that he will be traded. The team I heard most interested in him are the Tigers with us wanting Verlander in return. The deal would be based off of trading Hardy and a prospect. I would have to guess it would be a higher level prospect considering Verlander's age and money.

[Hate those Rodents]

Weeks 2B
Escobar SS
Braun CF
Abreau LF
Gamel 3B
Hart RF
Nelson 1B
Kendall C
Pitcher

This also assumes Hardy (plus) for Verlander and Fielder for Cain.
Not thrilled with Nelson at 1B obviously and that would probably be upgraded or platooned. Abreau would be added and Braun I think could be an excellent CF but not sure we'd move him for a second year in a row. I have no problem going with Escobar and Gamel if we can have a pitching staff like we'd have under this scenario and if we could add a bat like Abreau in the middle.

[jjfanec]

I don't think I have read this anywhere on here, but I have heard through some sources that if Hardy doesn't move to third that he will be traded. The team I heard most interested in him are the Tigers with us wanting Verlander in return. The deal would be based off of trading Hardy and a prospect. I would have to guess it would be a higher level prospect considering Verlander's age and money.

Why would the Tigers trade pitching when their staff is not good? I mean them wanting Hardy makes sense, but them trading pitching, especially Verlander does not make any sense to me.

[TheCrew07]

Their staff isn't good? Huh?

 

They had some major setbacks in that Bonderman got hurt, Verlander had a down year, and age may finally be catching up with Rogers. However Miner looks to be pretty decent and Galarraga was very good this year. Robertson still has only put it together for 2006 and was poor and Willis was horrible, but going into the season they had the makings of a good pitching staff. They don't have much minor league depth outside of Porcello as the other top pitching prospects in the organization faltered this year, but I could still see them moving a Verlander if they think offense if their biggest issue.

 

I just looked at Bonderman's stats, for some reason I thought he was better than a 4.74 career era, his stuff is pretty wicked, that's disappointing. Furthermore... Willis... as bad as I felt for Turnbow, I feel just as bad for Willis, he's putting up worse much numbers now than he did at the same minor league stop in 2002. Funny thing is that his AAA line this year is almost identical to his A+ line... how do you go from a sub 3.0 ERA in MLB to a 4.5+ in A+ in 2 years?

[nate82]

Their staff isn't good? Huh?

 

They had some major setbacks in that Bonderman got hurt, Verlander had a down year, and age may finally be catching up with Rogers. However Miner looks to be pretty decent and Galarraga was very good this year. Robertson still has only put it together for 2006 and was poor and Willis was horrible, but going into the season they had the makings of a good pitching staff. They don't have much minor league depth outside of Porcello as the other top pitching prospects in the organization faltered this year, but I could still see them moving a Verlander if they think offense if their biggest issue.

The biggest issue from the Tigers GM last year was their pitching staff. If I remember correctly the Tigers GM was interviewed on a sports radio program where he said this and it was his concern coming into the 2008 season.

 

I don't see how anything has changed for the Tigers Rogers is getting older and they only have two good proven pitchers in their rotation with Verlander and Bonderman. I don't see the Tigers trading away Verlander for Hardy. Offense is not the problem for Detroit it is their pitching that is the problem in Detroit. I don't see how the Tigers could justify trading Verlander away for Hardy even if they would get another prospect in return.

[bjkrautk]

The fact of the matter is, if Hardy is not going to be the Brewers' shortstop his highest value to the team comes in the form of a trade, not as a third baseman. The goal is to maximize each player's value.

My problem with this line of thinking is that it ignores the acquisition cost of whoever is tasked to play 3b. An everyday 3b has value as well. Hardy's OPS, while 4th among qualifying MLB shortstops, would still be 8th in the MLB at the hot corner. And, considering his Avg., OBP, and Slg. have all improved incrementally over the past 3 seasons, he could still improve on that positioning.

 

In other words, I think it would be harder to trade Hardy and acquire a comparable player at 3b than it would be to just move him some 30-40 feet to his right. While his ultimate "highest value" may be as a shortstop, I have my doubts that you can actually get his highest value in-trade. In my mind, the dimunition of value in moving Hardy from SS to either 2b or 3b is less than the value of patching that hole in the lineup.

 

That said, if the organization has confidence in Gamel to be an everyday 3b in the majors, there is no acquisition costs, so it may make sense to move Hardy. Even then, I think I'd rather 'cash out' the value on Prince Fielder, put Gamel at 1b, and improve the defense at both corners.

[joepepsi]

I think the talk of trading Hardy is a discussion for next winter. By then you'll have a clear picture of Gamel and Escobar.

[logan82]

I think the talk of trading Hardy is a discussion for next winter. By then you'll have a clear picture of Gamel and Escobar.

I agree completely. I think that over the last few years we have always been looking to the next big player coming up. To the point where we almost expect a minor leaguer to come up every year and be a star. Nobody looks ready to come up next year. At least not right away. I don't think it would be bad to have all those AA stars from this year in AAA next year to mature a bit and see where they are. Also, just in case somebody goes down with an injury it wouldn't hurt to have some good players in AAA. We were pretty lucky with injuries this year.

[Hate those Rodents]

AA and AAA are not that different. If you put up good numbers in AA, you'll put up good numbers in AAA (likely). I think if they proved to be very good at AA AND (this is important) AND there is a hole on the major league team or a player can be moved to help another area (Hardy for example) I would have no qualms about inserting the player into the major league lineup (thinking Gamel and Escobar).

[kwelak21]

I agree with you on the Tiger's pitching staff, but I did hear this rumor and it is from a pretty good source. So I thought I would through it out there because of who I heard it from. I think the Tigers would be going farther away from what they need to do in getting hardy, but that doesn't mean that they woudn't do it.

[jjfanec]

Their staff isn't good? Huh?

 

They had some major setbacks in that Bonderman got hurt, Verlander had a down year, and age may finally be catching up with Rogers. However Miner looks to be pretty decent and Galarraga was very good this year. Robertson still has only put it together for 2006 and was poor and Willis was horrible, but going into the season they had the makings of a good pitching staff. They don't have much minor league depth outside of Porcello as the other top pitching prospects in the organization faltered this year, but I could still see them moving a Verlander if they think offense if their biggest issue.

 

I just looked at Bonderman's stats, for some reason I thought he was better than a 4.74 career era, his stuff is pretty wicked, that's disappointing. Furthermore... Willis... as bad as I felt for Turnbow, I feel just as bad for Willis, he's putting up worse much numbers now than he did at the same minor league stop in 2002. Funny thing is that his AAA line this year is almost identical to his A+ line... how do you go from a sub 3.0 ERA in MLB to a 4.5+ in A+ in 2 years?

Are you trying to point out that their staff is good? I was wondering because you seemed to point out a lot of their deficiencies as a staff. If they lose Verlander they are going with a staff of Bonderman, Robertson, Galarraga, Miner, and Willis (and maybe Rogers). That is a bad rotation. You dont really have a 1 or 2 guy in that rotation if you ask me. Bonderman has good stuff and Galarraga pitched well last year but it would be tough to rely on them to carry a roation. With Verlander it has potention to be a decent rotation, but to me it would be similar to us trading Sheets at the beginning of this year, which would have left us with some nice pitchers but definitely not guys to carry a staff.

[hauser42]

I can see the Tigers having a lot of interest in Hardy. The biggest problem on that team is the defense not the pitching. :Last year they had a bunch of guys running aroung with frying pans for gloves or slow foot guys not covering ground.

 

Hardy would solve a lot of their problems at SS and they would still have a good bat in the lineup if they got him. Verlander would be a starting point for the Brewers with Hardy and a young arm involved. I would send C-Vill to get that job done without blinking.

[TheCrew07]

I typed out a long post and accidentally hit Add Reply instead Quick Reply and lost it.

 

I think on paper Detroit had a very solid rotation coming into the year so I have a difficult time agreeing that their rotation is poor because 2 of the top 3 underperformed and the other got hurt. They weren't good in 2008, but I don't see why they wouldn't be better in 2009. With the additions of Miner and Galarraga to the rotation and likely Porcello replacing Rogers (Porcello has a MLB deal already so he'll be pushed) there's reason for optimism in Detroit if Bonderman will be healthy. Even if they trade Verlander who's only signed through 2009 they still have Willis and Robertson as depth for the 5th spot (and I sincerely hope Willisturns it back around) or they could sign a FA pitcher. Hopefully for their fan's sake Garcia and Rogers will not be back.

 

A rotation of Bonderman, Verlander, Miner, Galarraga, and Porcello excites me much more than a rotation of Yo, Parra, Bush, McClung, and Suppan.

[Ennder]

A rotation of Bonderman, Verlander, Miner, Galarraga, and Porcello excites me much more than a rotation of Yo, Parra, Bush, McClung, and Suppan

 

I'd call them even assuming Gallardo stays healthy to match up with Verlander. Miner is pretty comperable to Bush with most of Miner's success being as a RP. Galarraga was completely a product of his .237 BABIP, when that reverts to normal we are looking at a #4 or #5. Porcello is obviously the wild card here.

[jjfanec]

A rotation of Bonderman, Verlander, Miner, Galarraga, and Porcello excites me much more than a rotation of Yo, Parra, Bush, McClung, and Suppan.

I would agree that their rotation is a lot more than the Brewers current rotation, but it could be better. I advocate the Brewers trading for a top end pitcher and I would do the Verlander for Hardy trade in a second. However, what i have been saying is that I see no reason for Detriot to make this trade. If you take Verlander out of that rotation then I think it is a bad rotation. Detriot needs to add pitching, not subtract (unless they really think Porcello is ready to be a solid starter).