Rosenthal says Hardy likely to be traded.

[yoshii8]

If it is out of the question for Escobar to play 2nd, do you think the Brewers will trade Hardy or Escobar? I could see a scenario of having Escobar spend 09' in AAA and then trading Hardy after next season. I think the Brewers are going to have a tough time trading Hardy, and he is one of the most important guys on the team.

[brwrsfan]

Not that it means much, but Gord Ash said Escobar was chosen over Dillon to replace Weeks on the roster because he is "versatile" and "can play all of the infield positions".

 

It was in the JS this morning....so it's probably not ENTIRELY impossible for Escobar to be moved to another position.

[colbyjack]

I am amazed so few of you seem to have any plan for Gamel. He's probably our top prospect. I realize the concerns on his defense at third, but it is pretty shocking that many want Hardy moved to third or for us to throw a bunch of money at a third baseman.

 

Trust me, I'm not forgeting Gamel, I just want to see this team put players where their skills fit the best, as I want this team to put a greater emphasis on defense, or at least continue to do so. Dealing with Braun at 3B last year, a problem that could have corrected the year before with a little better forsight, I think is the best example of this. I know many believe Gamel could stick at 3B long term, but if his bat plays in a corner OF spot, and would allow him to make a better all-around impact more quickly, I think that move should be made sooner rather than later.

 

I'm guessing a few others feel the same way as I do. Moving Hardy to 3B, maybe not next year, but possibly the year after that, and inserting Escobar at SS would make the left side of the infield incredibly strong defensively.

[southpaw121505]

Not that it means much, but Gord Ash said Escobar was chosen over Dillon to replace Weeks on the roster because he is "versatile" and "can play all of the infield positions".

 

 

I'd assume all that means is that he can play short while Dillon can't. I'm sure Escobar COULD play 2nd or even 3rd but that minimizes his impact. I'd prefer going into 09 with Weeks and Hardy up the middle again. I wouldn't be against bringing Escobar up mid season to play 2nd if Weeks really struggles and Escobar is tearing it up in AAA. Then the next year they can decide which one to trade or see if they can convince JJ to play 3rd, because Escobar is the future SS of the Brewers, it's just a matter of when that happens and what moves are made to make it happen.

[EbbaStClaire]

As I recall a lot of fans assumed it would be easy for Alex Rodriguez to switch from shortstop to 3rd base. It turned out fine but it was a bumpy road as I recall.

[danzig6767]

Young is a nice player, but as End points out, JJ is better, especially when you consider his youth and price.

 

Well, that's kind of what we're talking about. End also points out that it doesn't make sense that the Brewers would pay Hardy $15 MIL/season at 3B. When in actuality, as you pointed out Al, that price is a made up number that isn't realistic in the discussion. And I'm sorry, but they're two different players, and Hardy has not accomplished what Young has. I'm not saying Hardy isn't good, I'm saying he'd be just as good at 3B, with a better defensive SS. But yes, if money is taken in to account, I would rather have Hardy over Young too. But endaround is saying that Hardy is going to make what Young is all of a sudden, and that's just exaggeration big time.

Hardy won't make around 15 million per because he's only arby eligible. If say JJ was an unrestricted free agent this offseason, i don't doubt at all that he'd be able to fetch a contract paying him around the range of 15 million per year. Young is a fine player, but check his home/road splits once. Arlington ball park is the closest thing to Coors pre-humidor as there is in baseball.

 

I'd love to at some point move Hardy to third and have Escobar at SS, but i can understand why Hardy would balk at the move given he's worth much more financially as a shortstop. He's very solid defensively at SS and had a top 5 OPS at his position, at third that wouldn't be the case.

[FVBrewerFan]

No, I'm not saying this team is built for "2008 or bust." At the same time, I do believe 2009 is a rebuilding year. Taking one step back, to hopefully go two steps forward in 2010. I'm not going to pretend losing CC and Sheets won't have a huge impact. Then you have Yo and Parra at the top of the rotation, and neither one has put together a full MLB season. While not impossible, I just don't see how things will work out to get to 90 wins again in 2009. (And we haven't even talked about the bullpen and holes in the line-up.)

 

That's why I would bring Escobar up right away. I "ignored" Gamel because I think he's destined for 1B or the OF. That will take another year to work on defensively. Now, that is what I WANT to happen. I haven't seen or heard any signs that they ar even considering moving Hardy to 3B or anywhere. A more likely scenerio is that Escobar comes north with the team as the utility IF. And I DO think that will happen. Now, if they are set in their minds that Gamel will be the #B in the near future, then he should be given the chance to win the position in spring training.

[LouisEly]

In this day and age, you don't simply move a guy. Why would he move to 3B?

 

Didn't seem to hurt the career of that Ripken guy. Or that Rodriguez guy in NY.

 

Count me in the Hardy to 3B, Escobar to SS in 2010 camp. What "step down" they will make offensively with Hardy being an "average 3B offensively" they will make a step up in the entire left side of the infield being excellent defensively. If he doesn't want to make the move, then trade him.

[FVBrewerFan]

Keep in mind Hardy had a higher OPS than all but FOUR starting NL 3B. And that includes Chipper Jones who only played 128 games. Also, Hardy has already shown more power than he did in the minors. He could develop a bit more power, and easily be an above average hitter at 3B.

[ILuvDaBush]

Also keep in mind that JJ would be moving....to accomodate a rookie. JJ has been an all-star, has the best glove on the current team, and is in line to be paid commensurate with that. If he were a free agent, he could expect a $100mil contract (and I also realize he isn't nearly a FA, but any move would definitely impact his payday). And the organization would expect him to love to a new position because of some young kid who could be a flash in the pan? And what if Alcides does flop? Does JJ now move back to shortstop? When does all the switching end? We've all seen the Bill Hall-stagnation attributed to the neverending switching of positions (as well as his unwillingness to embrace the doubles hitter within). Cal Ripken was legendary for his unwillingness to move "until someone shows he's better than me."

 

That said, how many teams could honestly say they couldn't use JJ? Even the Yanks would have to give it serious thought with A-Rod's success at 3B and Jeter's age (and the ability to move Jeter to 2B, allowing for a trade of Cano). The top five targets for me would be....

 

1. The Nation-Masterson. Done. But seriously, The Nation can't feel too secure with Jed Lowrie coming up in a clutch situation next year. Lowell-JJ-Dusty-Youk is probably the top infield, both offensively and defensively, next season. Masterson's limited ML service time would make this amenable to both parties.

 

2. KC Royals. Greinke or Alex Gordon, though an argument could be made to make a stab at Soria. Honestly, they're not giving up Gordon anymore than we're giving up Braun. But if Greinke or Soria could be had, you would have to imagine JJ would be a big piece in such a trade.

 

3. Canada. The North Birds, a people always on the lookout for a defensive wunderkind, would hopefully jump at the opportunity to secure the young WASP-woman-hearthtrob for their solid infield, as well as solid lineup. Would they jump high enough to send us Halladay or McGowan+? BJ Ryan and Rolen (and the subsequent bill)? They have a few intriguing pieces and a definite interest, but not much of a match.

 

4. SF Jints. Matt Cain straight-up for the SS. No 300 lb. 1B pork barrels. If this would do it, it would probably be number one, or 1A (Masterson....MASTERSON!). He would take over for the once and former defensive whiz, but he would also bring a bat to his AB's. Novel concept.

 

5. The Dodgy Fellows. Lots of pitching, relief and starting. Prospects, current and former. Billz and Broxton are probably off limits, and Kershaw probably can't be had for JJ, but imagine a Bedard-type deal. Hong Chi-Kuo/Greg Miller/Scott Elbert/James McDonald. A lot of high ceiling pitchers (mixed with a reclamation project-Miller-who I've long been enamored with). Three lefties to boot. The Dodgy Ones no longer are top 5 or even top 10 system, and this would severely gut their farm, but JJ in Dodgy Blue seems too right with Torre and JJ's roots being so close.

 

Notable exceptions.

 

Cali Halos. They don't really NEED JJ and given their current situation, his arrival would only murky the waters. I do wonder if they would be interested in a JJ for Chone trade, however. Move the big piece of Wood to the hot corner permanently, and given the power of the left side of the infield, compared to its former dwellers (Aybar and Figgins), any power production protecting Vlad would be welcome.

 

8 Mile. I just don't think their owner has enough bullets left in his clip to get the guy. Bonderman/Zoom. Porcello. They just don't have the ammunition, without bloodying their hands.

 

Auckland Atleticos. Too much ammunition, because of a fear of blindlessly firing at an unknown target. But if ever a target were to appear, they'd be ready. JJ...not said target. But they're still ready...maybe 2020.

 

Dark Horse.

 

Minny's Geminis. Coco Liriano? Please! JJ would be their ideal target this offseason, and yet you hear very little that they'd be interested. Great defensively. Pop at a premium position. Pop appeal with the WASP-teeny-boppers. And he'd be getting closer to home....kinda.

[billyhallfan]

why must you type like that, it takes me forever to figure out what you are trying to say...

 

i agree with most about moving him, a lot of people were throwing a fit last year when there was talk on here about braun moving...

[Oldcity]

I think most people welcomed a Braun move. I would have been angry if he wasn't moved. Ripken and A-Rod's situations were vastly different than Hardy's. Ripken was older and didn't have the range for short anymore. A-Rod was the best hitter in the game and he would be paid a ton no matter where he played. He was still elite at third. Since Hardy isn't regularly putting up 1.000 OPS seasons, he won't be more than a solid 3B. Solid 3B<

[nate82]

Hardy is a top 5 SS in the NL in OPS and Hardy is also a top 5 3B in the NL in OPS.

 

There was only one 3B with an OPS of 1.000 in all of baseball. Hardy would rank 8th in OPS in all of baseball at 3B. Hardy is still a top 10 3B in MLB.

 

If Hardy switches over to 3B he will get less money but not a significant amount less. He would get about 1 to 2 million less at 3B than he would at SS. I believe Hardy at 3B would get just under Troy Glaus type of money at 3B. At SS Hardy would get about what Jimmy Rollins gets.

 

There are only 3 highly paid SS in the game. If Hardy really wants to make some money he should switch from SS to 3B. Only Jeter, Tejada, and Renteria are highly paid SS in the game. I'm not taking into account Ramirez's contract yet but I don't believe Hardy is anywhere near the potential that Ramirez holds.

 

3B will actually increase Hardy's payday. I would expect Hardy if he moved from SS to 3B this year for the Brewers to lock him in for a long term contract at 5 years for $45 million. Which is just under what Glaus is making. I doubt Hardy gets 10 Million a year at SS unless it is from the Yankees and Jeter isn't going anywhere any time soon. Unless the Yankees are willing to trade Chamberlain for Hardy.

[FVBrewerFan]

Also keep in mind that JJ would be moving....to accomodate a rookie. JJ has been an all-star, has the best glove on the current team, and is in line to be paid commensurate with that. If he were a free agent, he could expect a $100mil contract (and I also realize he isn't nearly a FA, but any move would definitely impact his payday). And the organization would expect him to love to a new position because of some young kid who could be a flash in the pan? And what if Alcides does flop? Does JJ now move back to shortstop? When does all the switching end? We've all seen the Bill Hall-stagnation attributed to the neverending switching of positions (as well as his unwillingness to embrace the doubles hitter within).

Yes, if Escobar doesn't work Hardy could move back to SS. Some of you act like this is some sort of rare oddity in MLB. Countless players move positions every year- some have been around the league much longer than Hardy. Nothing unusual about this. Hall's problem has nothing to do with position change, it has to do with having a love afair with change-ups and sliders low and off the plate.

 

Finally how would it affect his pay day? The market would dicate his salary, and there would be far more than one team that would want him at SS. It doesn't really matter where the Brewers are playing him. In fact, that would add to his value- a player who can play at least two positions very well.

[endaround]

Hardy is a top 5 SS in the NL in OPS and Hardy is also a top 5 3B in the NL in OPS.

 

There was only one 3B with an OPS of 1.000 in all of baseball. Hardy would rank 8th in OPS in all of baseball at 3B. Hardy is still a top 10 3B in MLB.

 

If Hardy switches over to 3B he will get less money but not a significant amount less. He would get about 1 to 2 million less at 3B than he would at SS. I believe Hardy at 3B would get just under Troy Glaus type of money at 3B. At SS Hardy would get about what Jimmy Rollins gets.

 

There are only 3 highly paid SS in the game. If Hardy really wants to make some money he should switch from SS to 3B. Only Jeter, Tejada, and Renteria are highly paid SS in the game. I'm not taking into account Ramirez's contract yet but I don't believe Hardy is anywhere near the potential that Ramirez holds.

 

3B will actually increase Hardy's payday. I would expect Hardy if he moved from SS to 3B this year for the Brewers to lock him in for a long term contract at 5 years for $45 million. Which is just under what Glaus is making. I doubt Hardy gets 10 Million a year at SS unless it is from the Yankees and Jeter isn't going anywhere any time soon. Unless the Yankees are willing to trade Chamberlain for Hardy.

 

If Hardy could only play in the NL that might be meaningful . But there are 14 other teams out there that can pay him. And your three doesn't include Young who is going to make $16m per year or the fact that Reyes and Ramirez just haven't gotten their big money yet but even Ramirez has huge amounts locked in. As a SS Hardy puts up Young type numbers which is $15m a year, at 3B he's Casey Blake who makes $6m a year.

[nate82]

If Hardy could only play in the NL that might be meaningful . But there are 14 other teams out there that can pay him. And your three doesn't include Young who is going to make $16m per year or the fact that Reyes and Ramirez just haven't gotten their big money yet but even Ramirez has huge amounts locked in. As a SS Hardy puts up Young type numbers which is $15m a year, at 3B he's Casey Blake who makes $6m a year.

Ummmm no Hardy is more along the lines of Troy Glaus than Casey Blake. The difference between Hardy and Glaus this year is about 3 home runs, 2 doubles, and about 20 more walks. The walks is what is really killing Hardy when you compare him to Troy Glaus who is signed at 4 years for $45 million. I believe Hardy could get a deal that is worth what Glaus is making. That is only about $3 million difference between what Young is making.

 

Hardy will get paid if he playrs 3B or SS. If Hardy would have drawn more walks this year he would have had an OPS close to what Glaus had this year. That would move him from 8th in MLB to 6th in MLB for OPS. Hardy is a top 3B as much as he is a top SS. He will get paid no matter where he plays. I still say 5 years at $45 million is likely and if not at 5 then a 4 year deal at $55 million would be adequate to sign Hardy at. That is a $13.75 million a year versus a $15 million a year deal a difference of only $1.25 million if Hardy doesn't sign because of a difference of $1.25 million then good bye.

 

This is not even putting Hardy's defense into account at 3B which would be at David Wright and Ryan Zimmerman levels. If you add that into the equation you would see Hardy would be paid as a top 5 3B.

[piccione88]

Glaus is a perrenial 850 OPS hitter, with a career OBP of 360. I do not think Hardy is the hitter Glaus is just yet. Hardy is closer to Blake than Glaus esspecially when you consider how valuable on base percentage is. Hardy defensivley would be far supperior to Blake however, so he is more valuable, but not quite on Glaus' level.

[endaround]

Hardy just isn't among the top 3B who are some of the best hitters in the game even assuming Hanley Ramirez doesn't get moved soon. Hardy is not among A. Ramirez, Jones, Wright, Longoria, and ARod.

[Hate those Rodents]

I'd throw in guys like Garrett Atikins in that group ahead of JJ too.

[BrewCrewForever]

The more I think about it I like the idea of keeping Hardy and moving him to 3B to make way for Alcides at SS in 09' and if you want to move a player for a pitcher move Prince. In his place find a stop gap type player for 1B through free agency or in Brad Nelson and get Gamel ready to play 1B in 2010.

[Milltownhooker]

Could always go the Mets route with Jose Reyes. Originally he started at 2B while Kaz Matusi played SS. I'd trade Prince for that young SP. He's a pretty one-dimensional player & train Gamel for 1B/OF duty in AAA. Heck give Hall a shot at first if one can't be found at a reasonable price.

[trwi7]

I'd throw in guys like Garrett Atikins in that group ahead of JJ too.

Atkins is a product of Coors. He's not better than Hardy.

[wallus]

Probably not the right spot for this... but why not just sign Larry Jones?

[reillymcshane]

Atkins, as someone pointed out, benefits extremely from Coors.

 

This year, .903 OPS at home, .661 OPS on the road.

 

From 2005-2007, it's not as bad - .790 vs .946 - but still extreme.

 

I would be very wary of him.

 

As for Glaus - he got his big contract after hitting from 30 to 47 HR for about five years running, so trying to suggest his contract will be similar to Hardy's because they have similar stats this year just doesn't work. In all fairness, however, with the way salaries have increased since Glaus signed his deal, if Hardy keeps playing like he is, he'll get at $10+ million a year deal little difficulty.

 

Finally, what the heck were the Rangers thinking when they gave that $16 million/year deal to Young? It's got to be one of the worst contracts of the decade. Not quite Zitoesque, but really foolish.

[tigerbrew]

To me, Hardy is a very valuable member of this team and I'd much prefer to keep him long term. I wouldn't mind trading Weeks and Prince though if the price is right. Hopefully, Suppan, Hall and Riske can be traded this offseason.