Rosenthal says Hardy likely to be traded.

[endaround]

Hardy 2007 .277/.323/.463 Young 2007 .315/.366/.418

 

Hardy 2008 .283/.343/.478 Young .284/.339/.402

 

Being close in 2007 and vastly superior in 2008 while 6 years younger makes him better in my book. And Hardy doesn't get the Arlington boost Young gets.

[dadofandrew]

Young is a nice player, but as End points out, JJ is better, especially when you consider his youth and price.

[BrewCrewForever]

Hardy has had an awesome postseason as well. Really stepped his game up.

[twobrewers]

Brewer fans need to accept that JJ Hardy is a top flight SS.

 

There were only 4 SS with a higher OPS. (Based on enough at bats)

 

I forgot to mention...

JJ has improved his average in each of the past 3 years.

JJ has improved his OBP in each of the past 3 years.

JJ has improved his SLG in each of the past 3 years.

[Roscoe Chill]

Young is a nice player, but as End points out, JJ is better, especially when you consider his youth and price.

Well, that's kind of what we're talking about. End also points out that it doesn't make sense that the Brewers would pay Hardy $15 MIL/season at 3B. When in actuality, as you pointed out Al, that price is a made up number that isn't realistic in the discussion. And I'm sorry, but they're two different players, and Hardy has not accomplished what Young has. I'm not saying Hardy isn't good, I'm saying he'd be just as good at 3B, with a better defensive SS. But yes, if money is taken in to account, I would rather have Hardy over Young too. But endaround is saying that Hardy is going to make what Young is all of a sudden, and that's just exaggeration big time.

[BrewCrewForever]

Brewer fans need to accept that JJ Hardy is a top flight SS.

 

There were only 4 SS with a higher OPS. (Based on enough at bats)

 

I forgot to mention...

JJ has improved his average in each of the past 3 years.

JJ has improved his OBP in each of the past 3 years.

JJ has improved his SLG in each of the past 3 years.

So should we maybe keep JJ and try to trade Escobar? It's such a tough choice.

[EbbaStClaire]

There are a number of threads in a couple of fan forums that attempt to predict what the 09 Brewers should look like but I (along with a few like TheCrew07) believe that the structure of the 09 Brewers begin with the pitching staff, namely the starting pitching. The Brewers current staff has 6 pitchers who could be starters--Gallardo, Parra, Bush, Suppan, McClung, and Villanueva. In my opinion there were no potential Major League starting pitchers on the Nashville staff and the best of the Huntsville staff was Periard, Jeffress, Welch and Wright and I don't think any of them is ready to pitch in Milwaukee. The last time I looked the average number of starters used by major league teams in 08 was >10. The Brewers used 8 different starters. Of course there are various reasons for the high number of starters used by teams including ineffectiveness, injuries, trades, and showcasing for 09. The point is the Brewers need another 2-3 starting pichers, some of which could be in Nashville. In fact the number might be more than that if there is more than one injury or more likely other than Bush or Suppan the younger guys may not be able to pitch more than 190 innings. I submit that only Bush will reach that number. Of course trades and/or free agency signings hopefully occur but what can the Brewers do in the meantime. I would try to sign a couple of veteran pitchers who have both started and relieved, e.g., Kip Wells and Mark Hendrickson. I am just using them as examples since they both have their share of warts. But both of them have started and have pitched in relief and actually have pitched better in relief than when they were starting. The advantage of guys like this is that they can pitch more than one inning at a time and aren't considered left or righthanded specialists. This approach to signing pitchers would allow the Brewers to have a lot of flexibility on the staff. Assuming a 12 man staff they would have at least 5 pitchers who could start or relieve -- Suppan,Villanueva, McClung, Hendrickson, & Wells. In addition you still can chose between Torres,Shouse, Stetter, Riske, Coffey, Mota & Dillard, Pena & possibly Aquilar. There would be enough relief depth at Nashville. Hopefully, someone surfaces as a closer.

 

My own prejudice is that the best starters are Gallardo, Parra, Bush, and McClung (who may also be the best potential closer). Using this approach the Brewers would only have to sign one free agent and wouldn't necessarily HAVE to trade anyone for pitching. I would prefer they sign Sabbathia because every good team has at least one horse. I wouldn't sign a Class A free agent that costs both a lot of money and draft choices. Sheets would be okay if his problem heals with rest. I would sign Capuano and wouldn't mind Braden Looper. As someone else mentioned the state of the economy may blunt the escalating signing costs.

 

Who closes for 09? McClung, Torres or Coffey. If Torres retires the Brewers need someone else to chose from. Gagne for $5.0M.?

I'm only half kidding since he finished very strong.

[DHonks]

I'd re-sign Hardy long-term. When he was in the minors, I projected him as a Rich Aurellia-type player, and he's really coming through on that.

 

I have questioned Hary at many times, mainly because early in his career he was very vocal in saying that he was not an "all-fields" hitter, but rather was a "pull" hitter. Yet when JJ turned his season around beginning in June, it was obvious that he was finally embracing an "all-fields" approach. If that's a true assessment, then I would look to sign him for 4-5 years, and be honest with him that he's being paid as a good all-around SS, but might be asked to move to 3b to improve the team.

[logan82]

DHonks wrote:

Yet when JJ turned his season around beginning in June, it was obvious that he was finally embracing an "all-fields" approach.

I think JJ turning his season around in June had more to do with getting his left shoulder healthy than anything else.

[endaround]

Young is a nice player, but as End points out, JJ is better, especially when you consider his youth and price.

 

Well, that's kind of what we're talking about. End also points out that it doesn't make sense that the Brewers would pay Hardy $15 MIL/season at 3B. When in actuality, as you pointed out Al, that price is a made up number that isn't realistic in the discussion. And I'm sorry, but they're two different players, and Hardy has not accomplished what Young has. I'm not saying Hardy isn't good, I'm saying he'd be just as good at 3B, with a better defensive SS. But yes, if money is taken in to account, I would rather have Hardy over Young too. But endaround is saying that Hardy is going to make what Young is all of a sudden, and that's just exaggeration big time.

 

No the whole point was Hardy is a $15m a year SS in 2 years and a $8m a year at best 3B. He won't want to move. If the Brewers want to sign him long term he would need to be paid as a top flight SS not an average 3B. So no Escobar and Hardy on the same team just doesn't work.

[dadofandrew]

His lingering shoulder trouble is something the Crew will have to access. Guys who are banged up a lot when they're young tend to not become bastions of health as they get older.

[Never Outhustled]

After 2009, trading Hardy, will make sense, but not now. Every piece of evidence points to him having a very strong 2009.

 

The Brewers do need to add 1 more quality starting pitcher for 2009, and I agree with the trade route being the most reliable, cost efficient way to do that.

 

The Brewers also need to address 1B, because they don't have 1. They do have a very good DH, but we play in the NL. Trading the DH is a no-brainer. The team might lose something offensively from his production this year, but theres reason to believe he might continue to regress. The possible offensive loss would be offset by the improvement they'd have defensively at 1B. Trading him would be wise risk management.

[BrewCrewForever]

and McClung (who may also be the best potential closer).

 

I know this is a Hardy thread, but I have to touch on that. If not other starting options are available I would give Seth a shot. But I think he deserves more of a shot to close. He has all the making of a closer. He throws very hard 94-98mph, has a nice breaking ball and can mix in a change. All that plus the fact he is very intense and a little intimidating on the mound I think unless they get some proven closer he gets the first shot even if Torres comes back. That way Torres can setup and pitch where ever he is needed throughout a game. My vote is Seth McClung for closer in 2009.

[DHonks]

BrewCrewIn2004....I don't like Seth at closer, or in the pen, because he needs the luxury of innings to work around his wildness. If he comes in for the 9th and has wildness, it costs the game. If he starts and works through it after 2 innings, he can be effective for several more.

[BrewCrewForever]

BrewCrewIn2004....I don't like Seth at closer, or in the pen, because he needs the luxury of innings to work around his wildness. If he comes in for the 9th and has wildness, it costs the game. If he starts and works through it after 2 innings, he can be effective for several more.

He isn't always wild the first few innings. Sometimes yes, but if he can work on that throughout the spring he has closer stuff and I think should be given a chance.

[dadofandrew]

Seth certainly has the build and stamina to give them 200 innings of 4ish ERA baseball. Anyone can close, just like they found Torres this year.

 

I leave him as a starter until he proves otherwise.

[BrewCrewForever]

Seth certainly has the build and stamina to give them 200 innings of 4ish ERA baseball. Anyone can close, just like they found Torres this year.

 

I leave him as a starter until he proves otherwise.

But let say they have Gallardo, Parra, Bush, Suppan and say they re-sign CC or trade/sign for another #2 type starter. Then wouldn't you give McClung a shot to close? I would take him over Suppan in the rotation but there is no way Suppan is going anywhere or going to be put in the pen.

[dadofandrew]

In that case, I would see Seth as SP depth, which they will need, obviously. Every team needs at least a #6 and #7 SP, either in the 'pen or AAA.

[GB12]

So should we maybe keep JJ and try to trade Escobar? It's such a tough choice.

 

I would much rather do that. What would we want Escobar to turn into? An allstar short stop. What is JJ Hardy? An allstar short stop. What we'd hope for Escobar to be JJ already is, why mess with it when we already have what we want there.

 

I think people on here are too high on Escobar because they've been following him as a prospect and now want to see him succeed in the majors. He's a good prospect no doubt, but Hardy's already a proven major leaguer.

[logan82]

I would much rather have JJ, but if he isn't willing to sign a long term contract I think we would be better off trading him. Maybe not this off season but next year.

[FVBrewerFan]

I would move Hardy to 3B and bring up Escobar to play SS at the start of the 2009 season. If 2009 is a rebuilding year, then make the move now. Let Escobar work out the kinks offensively and defensively. Look how Hardy struggled trying to hit MLB pitching- and he turned out fine. No matter how long you wait for a player to be "ready" they are never ready when thye first face MLB pitching. There is a learning curve for anyone not named Ryan Braun.

 

Will Hardy be happy about that? Probably not. But he's a professional and will accept the move. Maybe that means he won't sign long term, but we're all just speculating about that. Some pretty big stars have been willing to change positions.

 

Then I would trade Weeks or Hart, just not sure what value they have right now. Brewers may be beetr off giving both those guys one more year if they have limited trade value.

[colbyjack]

If 2009 is a rebuilding year, then make the move now.

 

I don't mean to keep beating this drum, and I'm not saying that you (FVBrewerFan) think 2009 will be a rebuilding year so I'm definitely not trying to pick on you, but I want to bring up again that this Brewers team was not built for 2008 or bust. This is probably more of a response to the local sports talk in which many people seem to think the Brewers will have a hard time making the playoffs next year since Sheets and Sabathia will no long be with the team. Getting to the playoffs no doubt will be tough, but there's no reason to believe that the Brewers right now have enough talent to make the same run next year, and beyond, especially if the offense performs closer to what is expected from them.

 

A few changes need to be made, without a doubt, but the pieces are there for lasting success.

 

Going back on topic, because of that I do think Gamel and Escobar should spend some time in AAA next year, and only be brought up if they absolutely need them (due to injury most likely) or if either one is tearing it up. I would prefer to see the 2009 built expecting both of them to receive more time for seasoning, which is why I prefer the idea of finding a stopgap at third base (such as Beltre) and keeping most everything else the same.

 

Unless the market value for Hardy goes the roof, which it could, as Hardy clearly is one of the best shortstops in the game now. However, since this is 2008 and not 2002, that's all the more reason to keep Hardy and not trade him.

[yoshii8]

I can't see Hardy being traded, I think that he will be signed long term this off-season, from what I've heard he is a great clubhouse leader, and from what I've seen he is a great young player that is getting better each season, and it doesn't hurt that he's a fan favorite.

 

With Alcides Escobar, I think he will enter '09 in AAA, and maybe they will see how he looks at 2b and 3b every now and then. If he proves to be ready for the major leagues I don't think they would hesitate to bring him up as a 2B, it would make our middle infield defense very good. Also, Jose Reyes was used as a 2b in his first season, so its not that crazy of a thought.

 

I would also love to see the Brewers trade for Adrian Beltre. I think an infield defense of Escobar, Hardy, Beltre would be amazing, and would help offset the fact that Prince is a bad 1st baseman, and might rub off on him a little bit.

[Hate those Rodents]

I am amazed so few of you seem to have any plan for Gamel. He's probably our top prospect. I realize the concerns on his defense at third, but it is pretty shocking that many want Hardy moved to third or for us to throw a bunch of money at a third baseman. I am not saying he is even ready for the majors this season, but if the brewer brass hasn't moved him, isn't it pretty likely the guy is the future (maybe sooner than later) at third base. The kid seems to have an all star caliber bat, though again I note he's Braunish defensively from the stats we've seen.

[dadofandrew]

First of all, I cannot imagine any scenario in which Escobar plays 3B for any length of time. 2B is unlikely enough.

 

Colby is right though, this is not a team built for '08 or bust. Hopefully, there will be a nice stretch of 5-7 years of success. That doesn't mean playoffs or even a .500 record every year, but it means not rebuilding in that time frame.

 

The funny thing is, the 5 guys penciled into the rotation as of today would rank 6th in ERA in the NL, using their 2008 numbers (except Yo, whose sample was so tiny, I used his career stats). Now, going from 2nd to 6th is a loss of a few games, but other areas can be improved...as can starting pitching.