Does the offense need a dramatic overhaul during the offseason?

[Greg Vaughn]

I think we:

 

1. Trade Fielder.....for starting pitching, unless he agrees to come in 30 pounds lighter next year and commits himself to defense in the off-season.

 

2. DFA or trade Weeks and Hall for a bag of balls.

 

3. Attempt to move Hardy to 3rd base and bring Escobar up. If Hardy won't move to 3rd or 2nd you trade him and bite the bullet with Gamel at 3rd.

 

4. Do NOT pick up Mike Cameron's option

 

5. Attempt to trade for a 1.) lead-ff hitter 2.) Brian Roberts (in my dreams)

 

6. Let Nelson man the 1 bag for a year if a better option can't be found in FA

 

7. I'd go after Giambi (2 year deal) to be honest with you (I know....go ahead and laugh). His approach at the plate is exactly what this club needs and his defense is better than Prince.....which says a lot.

 

8. Play for 2010.....next season is a building year. We need to "clean house" right now!

[JohnBriggs12]

I really do not understand all the disdain for Kendall. He's a number 8 hitter. Did people really expect him to hit 10+ HR's? At least he seems to know how to work a count and make a pitcher throw some pitches.

 

To me the catcher's position is all about defense. Any offense that a catcher can add to the line up is frosting on the cake. I have no problem with Kendall's work behind the plate and how he has handled the pitching staff. I think people are really forgetting how other teams use to abuse prior Brewer catchers on the base paths and how frustrating that was. Take a look around at all the MLB catchers. There are not a ton of really good offensive catcher's out there.

There's better offensive catchers on practically every team. Heck Rivera is. Kendall was once a good hitter, but he's not now. He's been good defensively but not in the class of other catchers that have caught everyday like Pudge and Johnny Bench. But those guys were premier hitters too. No way should an under .250 hitter, with no power, who's only slightly above average defensively and in his mid 30s be starting 150 games. There's no question in my mind that if he starts 125 games instead, he probably hits 25 points higher and they get much more out of that position without sacrificing all that much defensively.

[JJHardy7]

I just don't see Escobar being the answer. Yeah he would help the defense but he'd be lucky to put up Counsel's numbers offensively. Kendall, Escobar, Pitcher would be just ugly at the bottom of the order. Escobar isn't major league ready and a year of inflated BABIP in AA doesn't really change that.

 

I agree. I've seen Escobar quite a bit and he's going to be a very good major leaguer someday, but asking a guy to go from AA to the bigs and make a big impact is not the best way for a team that wants to compete. If we sit back and say we're not going to make the playoffs or be .500 next year, then Escobar maybe should be called up. Escobar and Gamel (Escobar especially) need more experience and need to bulk up a bit. I've said this before and I'm not saying they need to pack on 40 pounds of muscle, but they're both young guys and they're still developing. They just are small for your average major leaguer and I think if we give them another year in the minors they'll come in more experienced and physically ready to handle playing 140 - 150+ games and be able to maintain a powerful swing all year.

 

I think the best comparison to Escobar playing next year is Hardy's first half of his rookie year. This team doesn't need that if they want to win next year. The solution for this team is not coming from an AA player.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

A number of solid points made that I agree with...great stats Ennder on this thread and the PECOTA thread.

 

1) I think the key is balance. We need to trade some SLG for some OBP. Some righty for lefty. My bet here is that optimizes run production for a given OPS. I can't statistically back that, but it seems somewhat rational.

 

2) JohnBriggs makes a great point on Fielder...the lack of balance and another legit lefty in the lineup makes it easier to pitch around him. Fielder is a premier talent and shows more plate discipline than most of the team...but from watching the games, it seemed he was getting pitched around.

 

3) Hall is flat out killing us. At this point we need to find a home for Bill...may I suggest somewhere other than Milwaukee. 2 years is enough evidence for me. Trade, FA or even Gamel (although I'd rather see a full year at AAA)...anything but Hall. Great guy...we'll always have Mother's Day...but it's time to move on.

 

4) I'm not ready to give up on Weeks or Hart. Weeks has shown enough flashes that may be suckering me in...but I'm willing to go another year. If we can just get his OBP in that 380+ range, I think he's good to go. For Hart...it was one bad half...and a very bad one at that. I'm not willing to give up here either.

 

5) Cameron - Despite the last two games, Mike has been great in CF and been productive at the plate. My guess is he warrants the money for another year, but does he really bring the balance to the lineup? We could use a legit leadoff hitter...Mike is not that guy. To change the OBP mix of the club, it may take more than just replacing Hall.

 

6) Do not trade Hardy...the guy has a great glove and has been very solid at the plate. His only struggles came when he was hurt. Maybe he moves to 2B or 3B at some point, but keep him for sure. Braun, Fielder and Hardy are the cornerstones of this team and have all proven to be completely legit...I'd like to see Hardy and Fielder locked up for the Braun era during the off-season.

 

7) Play for 2010. That may mean making a move or two that steps us back at a position that would get us legit in 2010. I would not include Gamel or Escobar since they may be a few years away from playoff-caliber productivity. That could mean by-passing Cameron and definetly means biting the bullet on Hall.

[Ennder]

Fielder is a DH playing 1B, I don't like the idea of locking him up. I think we stick with him until Gamel is ready and then trade Fielder for prospects in 2010 or 2011. We cannot blow up the team the season after making the playoffs for the 1st time in 26 years, it would alienate the fan base.

 

I would love to find a LH CF with good OBP to replace Cameron but just like last year I don't really see a player like that being available.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

I'll add...

 

8) Coaching - I'm glad they moved on from Ned. 14 games is too short to judge Sveum. In the end, I don't think coaching is the major issue. We have guys that are undisciplined at the plate and for the most part...that is unlikely to change.

[JohnBriggs12]

"I think the best comparison to Escobar playing next year is Hardy's first half of his rookie year".

 

You are ignoring some important facts with that statement JJ. Hardy missed almost the entire 2004 season prior to his stuggles the first half of 2005, his rookie year. Escobar has nearly double the minor league AB's that Hardy had (2,141 to 1,142). Hardy never hit over .300 in any minor league season. Escobar is coming off back to back season's where he's hit over .300.

 

Every player is different. Hardy is a fine player no doubt, but Escobar might well be capable of being good next season. That Hardy wasn't for a few months doesn't mean Escobar can't be. Escobar also adds the dimension of speed that Hardy doesn't possess.

[Patrick425]

There's better offensive catchers on practically every team. Heck Rivera is. Kendall was once a good hitter, but he's not now. He's been good defensively but not in the class of other catchers that have caught everyday like Pudge and Johnny Bench. But those guys were premier hitters too.

I never meant to compare him to guys like Pudge or Johnny Bench. Catchers like that are like gold and good luck getting one for less than $10 - $12 mil per year. There may be better offensive catchers out there...but how much better? How much worse is he than average? Again, I'll reiterate, it's all about defense and throwing runners out to me when it comes to catching. I will take a guy that throws out over 40% of the base runners but has an OBP of .325 over a guy that throws out less than 20% of the base runners and has an OBP of .355 any day...even if that guy can hit 10-15 HRs. I've been a Brewer fan for too long and have watched to many teams put on track meets against Brewer catchers to ever want to go back to that again.

 

Among regular catchers Kendall was 1st in MLB (by a pretty good margin) in throwing out runners (.427) and tied for 4th in CERA (3.83). Taking a quick overview of combined offensive/defensive stats among Catchers, there is only a small list that I would possibly prefer over Kendall:

 

Dioner Navarro

Kurt Suzuki

Joe Mauer

Bengie Molina

Yadiar Molina

C. Snyder

[brewmann04]

I think we need to find a few Contact High On Base players to mesh in with the Free swingers on this roster.

I am not Sure how much you blame the Coaching here especially the Hitting coach,I am sure he Preaches patience but utlimately it up to the batter.As for Player moves we can agree Gagne will not be back for his price tag and think Mota will be overpriced as well. I not really sure what the Brewers will do with Mike C that price tag seems very high to bring back. I think the Brewers need to find a way to trade either Bill Hall Or Weeks or Both if they can get something decent in return.

I still believe the Brewers will find a way to Keep CC and shock the baseball community.

I don't believe the FO will jsut handle Sveum the Job and look at all thier Possibilities.

If the Brewers don't sign CC or trade for a front line starter you have to think the Brewers will fall back to the middle of the pack.

Should be an intresting Offseason for the Brew Crew and their Fans.

[Greg Vaughn]

Ennder[/b]]Fielder is a DH playing 1B, I don't like the idea of locking him up. I think we stick with him until Gamel is ready and then trade Fielder for prospects in 2010 or 2011. We cannot blow up the team the season after making the playoffs for the 1st time in 26 years, it would alienate the fan base.

 

I would love to find a LH CF with good OBP to replace Cameron but just like last year I don't really see a player like that being available.

I'm being honest here and mean no disrespect.....

 

You know what will alienate me......another year of having to watch this god-awful offensive/defensive team. I will be extremely upset if I have to watch another day of Bill Hall/Rickie Weeks in a Brewers uniform.

 

I'd have no problem with Fielder on this team for a couple more years IF he agreed to come in 30 pounds lighter and made a concerted effort to improve his defense. Melvin should have a heart to heart after the season and see if he's willing to do that. If not....ship him out.

 

This team NEEDS to be blown up if we want to actually contend for a World Series some day and not be content with getting swept in the 1st round of the playoffs.

 

I agree completely with your statement about Centerfield.

[Ennder]

I'm being honest here and mean no disrespect.....

 

You know what will alienate me......another year of having to watch this god-awful offensive/defensive team. I will be extremely upset if I have to watch another day of Bill Hall/Rickie Weeks in a Brewers uniform.

 

I'd have no problem with Fielder on this team for a couple more years IF he agreed to come in 30 pounds lighter and made a concerted effort to improve his defense. Melvin should have a heart to heart after the season and see if he's willing to do that. If not....ship him out.

 

This team NEEDS to be blown up if we want to actually contend for a World Series some day and not be content with getting swept in the 1st round of the playoffs.

 

I agree completely with your statement about Centerfield.

Well I don't consider replacing Weeks as blowing the team up. If Hall isn't replaced I'll explode myself. My point was you can't trade Fielder, start a bunch of rookies and go into 'rebuild mode' after the season we had. The team can make changes that improve the product on the field but the changes have to be things that help in 2009. The hardcore fan base might understand blowing things up but the casual one won't understand it and I don't think they want to alienate that part of it.

[JohnBriggs12]

Patrick425,

 

You are telling me you prefer Kendall over:

 

Brian Mccann, Geo Soto, Russell Martin, AJ Pierzynski, Kelly Shoppach and Pudge?

 

I don't think you'd find one major league scout that would take Kendall over any of those guys or any of the guys on your list either.

 

Yet none of those guys (even young studs like Mauer and Soto) catches as many games as Kendall. That's the problem and why I compared Kendall to Bench and the Pudges. Those are the only types of guys that have any business catching 150 or more games and Kendall isn't and never was close to being in their class.

[jhpc12]

Ennder[/b]]I just don't see Escobar being the answer. Yeah he would help the defense but he'd be lucky to put up Counsel's numbers offensively. Kendall, Escobar, Pitcher would be just ugly at the bottom of the order. Escobar isn't major league ready and a year of inflated BABIP in AA doesn't really change that.

 

Hart is a below average RF, I think he would be a pretty significant problem in CF.

I have trouble understanding your position on Corey. I'm not trying to be rude because I believe you add a lot of incite to these discussions, but I really can't figure where you stand on Corey.

 

Outside of Sept 5th on Corey has been a very sevicable RF. His numbers match up with every RF in the league, except OBP and that number really needs to be addressed. He still did what you want a number 5 hitter to do drive in runs. 91 for the year and 20 in the month of August alone.

[alorrigan]

Is there any chance we do like the Red Sox have done with Jed Lawrie and play Escobar at 3rd and Short next year and deal with the problem later? I'm sure Escobar's offense wouldn't fit 3rd but Hardy might be able to make up for it by being an above average shortstop and Escobar's defense should be well above average wherever he plays. I would love to get rid of Weeks and keep Durham for 2nd but he can't play there everyday. Maybe we can put Escobar there every few days too. Mix in a little Branyan at 3rd with Gamel by the end of the year and this may be the cheapest option. I understand that Escobar is probably the best defensive player we have and short would be the best place to play him but he's barely a rookie he really hasn't earned the right to be given a position on the major league team when we have a pretty good player there already. If Escobar proves himself to be good enough with the bat to stick around and JJ refuses to move we trade JJ. Sure we would have lost some leverage but we didn't just waste time on Hall and Weeks.

[Patrick425]

JB,

 

As I said, I took a quick overview. I'll give you McCann, Soto, R. Martin, and Schoppage...based purely on their offense. But let's look at their CS%:

 

McCann 2008 .225 2007 .213

Soto .266/ NA

Martin .247/.333

Schoppage .213/ NA

 

I would not take Pierzinski. .312 OBP this year with a .179 CS%..yuck! He had a .244 CS% last year.

I wouldn't take Pudge either. He's showing his age. .325 CS% in 2008, .319 in 2007 with a .309 OBP this year. Also, what does Pudge make?

 

Keep in mind that Kendall also threw out 43% of baserunners with pitchers like Sheets and Sabathia, who are not exactly know for holding runners on. In addition, would some of these younger catchers be able to handle the pitching staff as effectively as Kendall has?

 

So, let's say there are 10 Catchers "ahead" of Kendall. Even if you want to include A.J. and Pudge...that's 12. People talk about Kendall like he's one of the worse 5 catchers in the league. Not even close when you factor in defense, the handling of the pitching staff, and his contract.

[JJHardy7]

You are ignoring some important facts with that statement JJ. Hardy missed almost the entire 2004 season prior to his stuggles the first half of 2005, his rookie year. Escobar has nearly double the minor league AB's that Hardy had (2,141 to 1,142). Hardy never hit over .300 in any minor league season. Escobar is coming off back to back season's where he's hit over .300.

 

Every player is different. Hardy is a fine player no doubt, but Escobar might well be capable of being good next season. That Hardy wasn't for a few months doesn't mean Escobar can't be. Escobar also adds the dimension of speed that Hardy doesn't possess.

 

I understand the circumstances. I just think that's what you'd get out of Escobar his first year. Can he play defense? Of course he can, but we have enough issues at times with Hall, Weeks, Cameron, and Kendall that Escobar would fit right into. Why rush Escobar? If Escobar was anywhere near the plan for next year, he would've gotten at least one start in September.

 

I understand Hardy was banged up, but he was rushed. Why risk similar things with Escobar? Escobar's frame isn't ready and I'd be shocked to see him hit for power in the bigs right now. Maybe he gets in the weight room and grows, but moving a guy from AA to the bigs is a huge risk and one that shouldn't be taken if the team wants to compete. Again, if the team isn't really looking to compete go ahead with Escobar. He's going to make plenty of mistakes batting and on the basepaths like he did in September that will be frustrating, but can be lived with if we're not trying to be .500.

 

Now if we answer 3b with Hardy, get someone competent at 2b, and live with the fact that our 7, 8, 9 hitters (Escobar, Kendall, pitcher) will produce little runs that's fine and it's probably not going to win ball games. I just don't think this current lineup can risk adding Escobar if the team wants to be .500 next year. It's way too big of a jump and a year ago everyone was questioning Escobar's power and one year later there's no questions? The entire Huntsville team had a pretty darn good offensive year, which leads me to believe some of the players may have had better years than their actual skills.

[TheCrew07]

If they adequately fill the hole left by Fielder it's all good, say by signing Teixeira for example. I'm not worried about the LH/RH thing at this time, I just want people on base somewhat consistently.

[Ennder]

I have trouble understanding your position on Corey. I'm not trying to be rude because I believe you add a lot of incite to these discussions, but I really can't figure where you stand on Corey.

 

Outside of Sept 5th on Corey has been a very sevicable RF. His numbers match up with every RF in the league, except OBP and that number really needs to be addressed. He still did what you want a number 5 hitter to do drive in runs. 91 for the year and 20 in the month of August alone.

Sorry i meant he is a slightly below average defensive RF. He would be a well below average defensive CF.

[BrewCrewForever]

We need a leadoff hitter. And bad, a guy at the top that can bat around .300 and have an OBP 60-80 points higher then his batting average. I would love to swing a trade for David DeJesus, I would trade Hart for him straight up. We also need to do something about 3B and 2B. I am willing to give Rickie 1 more year to show his potential, if not hes gone. But 3B is a black hole, Counsell is fine as a bench guy but should not be a straight platoon player and Hall has been just awful.

 

I don't have all the answers but I know Melvin has some work to do this offseason and we need to bring in some solid coaches to teach these guys and get the most out of them.

[JohnBriggs12]

Patrick,

 

Kendall's career numbers aren't anything special throwing out runners so it' likely that going forward they will be less than what they were in 09. Brian McCann had 99 more total bases than Kendall and even though he's near the bottom throwing out runners, a guy like Kendall has a hard time even approaching the value to his team than McCann provides.

 

The topic of this thread has to do with the offense which has been pathetic. Offensively, Kendall is bad, plain and simple. That's not to say that he's not at least a middle of the pack overall catcher in 2008 but the offense needs improvement and playing Kendall 150 games is part of that problem.

[nate82]

I would love to find a LH CF with good OBP to replace Cameron but just like last year I don't really see a player like that being available.

I believe DeJesus will be available this off season. He is a good OBP LH CF that could become available. Crawford could be had this off season also and you could move Weeks to CF. But trading Hart for Crawford is basically a wash except that Crawford is older and would cost the Brewers more than what Hart would cost.

 

I could see the Royals trading away DeJesus they are in love with Francouer maybe we could a three team deal going on with sending Hart to Atlanta, Atlanta sending Francouer to Kansas City and Kansas City sending DeJesus to Milwaukee. To me that would improve the offense a lot. The only problem with this is we need a corner outfielder.

 

There are two problems with this one do you bring up Gamel and have him play RF with no experience playing the OF or do you sign someone like Abreu, Dunn, or Burrell. The Brewers need another LH bat in the lineup. I still believe moving Hardy to 3B is the best option for the Brewers even if that means Escobar isn't ready hitting wise for MLB. Putting Escobar in the 7th spot in the lineup would be at worst as like having Counsell there. Who knows maybe Escobar is ready next year and suprises everyone.

 

The second problem with this is that you are not getting any help pitching wise. Assuming Sabathia is not resigned the starting lineup without trading away the biggest chip the Brewers have (Hardy) the starting rotation is not very solid. You would have Yo, Parra, Bush, Suppan, McClung/Villanueva/???.

 

I just don't see how the Brewers can solve the problems next year without shaking up the team. If the team doesn't get shaken up a little bit we are going to look like the 2008 Cleveland Indians. The team needs another LH bat in the lineup that can drive in runs. The Brewers have 2 options this coming up off season. Sign Sabathia or rebuild for 2010. Even with resigning Sabathia I don't see the Brewers being a contender if the same batters return next year.

 

A starting lineup of

1. DeJesus CF

2. Abreu RF

3. Braun LF

4. Fielder 1B

5. Hardy 3B

6. Weeks 2B or Rivera C

7. Escobar SS

8. Kendall C or Weeks 2B

9. Pitcher

 

This lineup would be an improvement over what we have this year.

 

If Hardy refuses to move to 3B then you have to trade him either in the off season or at the trading deadline. To me the best value Hardy gives to the Brewers while playing for us is at 3B.

[dadofandrew]

Re the '82 Brewers, actually, they wwere just an OK OBP team as well, and had excellent SLG. If memory serves, I think they were 7th in OBP and 1st in SLG.

[BrewCrewForever]

A starting lineup of
1. DeJesus CF
2. Abreu RF
3. Braun LF
4. Fielder 1B
5. Hardy 3B
6. Weeks 2B or Rivera C
7. Escobar SS
8. Kendall C or Weeks 2B
9. Pitcher

 

Nate82 I love that lineup. I love it A LOT.

[Patrick425]

The topic of this thread has to do with the offense which has been pathetic.

I understand that. However, when talking about how to improve the offensive production, finances have to be taken into consideration. While the Brewers are better off financially than they were several years ago, they are still not in competition with the NY's, LA's, and Boston's of the world. I would rather have reasonably priced light hitting, good defensive catcher and spend the extra cash elsewhere than pay 2 or 3 times as much for a better hitting catcher that has trouble throwing out base runners.

 

I'm also aware of Kendall's history of throwing out runners, but it's clear to me that he has made some footwork adjustments this year to improve in that area. The way he positioned himself yesterday to throw out Rollins was a clear example of that.

[jhart05]

Someone tried to tell me last night that Tony Gwynn Jr is their answer in CF and as the high-OBP leadoff hitter they need. I don't think so.

 

 

I don't have much more to add that hasn't already been said.

 

1) Find a high OBP leadoff guy. You don't need him batting .300, if he takes his walks and can get that OBP 100 points higher than his BA. A .360 OBP would be just fine.

2) Hope the kids continue to improve.

3) Pound it in their heads that they need to take more pitches, a walk is not a bad thing, but I don't know how you do that and still keep them aggressive.

4) Fix Corey Hart. He has the potential to hit .300 with 25 HRs and 25 SBs, if he would just figure out how to be more selective. Who knows, maybe he just tired down the stretch. After all, he's never played 150 games in a season.

5) I'd move Hardy to 3B, ONLY IF Escobar is ready to play SS. That would be a huge defensive improvement, and probably not that much of a loss on offense if Escobar can hit at least .250. If not, are there any 3B out there who can leadoff?? No, of course not.

6) Durham can't play everyday. We saw what happened late in the season when he tried to. But a soft platoon with Weeks, would benefit both of them. Start Durham twice a week.