Approach at the plate

[BuckyBrewer61]

This is not meant to be a vent or a finger-pointing, but after games like last night I wonder where the Brewers get their plate approach from. I am not that upset about yesterday's game, Cole Hamels was just plain dealing and no lineup in baseball would have mustered much against him, but the team's approach just confuses me sometimes. If I can sit in a bar sipping a beer and say "Bill Hall is going to get nothing but changeups away and will still try and hit them all off the top of the left field foul pole," I'm sure there must be someone in the Brewers organization that knows way more about baseball than me with a similar and much more sophisticated scouting report.

 

So, who isn't getting the memo? Is Skaalen not preaching a good approach or just accepting his hitters for who they are? Are the players just shrugging their shoulders and swinging for the fences anyways? Do I know nothing about baseball and the Brewers are taking great approaches and I should shutup (quite possible...)? I understand this is a team that lives and dies by the home run, and that has gotten us to the postseason and that is freaking awesome, but why can't this team shorten up with two strikes and put the ball in play?

[MillerParkSouth]

I really think we should just watch Manny Ramirez at the plate. dude is one cool customer. takes pitches, makes them throw him strikes, doesn't get himself out. We've just been way too anxious at the plate all year, swinging at everything out of the zone. If we'd settle down, we would be a much better team and not so prone to getting no-hit through 6 every other game.

[joepepsi]

I suspect Doug Melvin is taking notes and we'll see a couple new hitters in the everyday lineup who have radically different approaches to the current Brewer starters.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if both Durham and Lamb are on the team next year.

[Gobias Industries]

A lot of the change-ups that Hamels threw yesterday were strikes, and still were unhittable. I think it was Weeks' first AB were he took a called 2nd strike that looked to be a ball, but the K-Zone showed it was just barely on the outside corner, and just barely high enough as well. A lot of his change-ups were like that.

 

I agree with you on our approach being terrible though. From the 1st inning thru the 8th, the hitters didn't alter their approach once. Even the announcers picked up on it yesterday. With the way we are always out in front of the change up, it makes you think everyone is sitting fastball. Wisely, Hamels just kept feeding them change-ups in hitters counts.

[Ennder]

For what it is worth Manny's HR last night was on a ball in the dirt, he just is able to still drive balls out of the strike zone for a HR.

 

The Brewers have had problems against the change up all season long. I don't know if it is just a player thing where we happen to have a bunch of guys that can't hit them or if part of it is a hitting philosophy of the team that isn't working.

[homer]

The Brewers just don't have good strikezone judgement which is reflected in the poor OBP. You watch teams like Boston or the Cubs and it's amazing how few balls outside the zone they swing at.

[Nottso]

I'm not that upset with the hitting aspect of the game. Hamels was awesome. I am upset though that we lost by two of three UNEARNED runs.

[BuckyBrewer61]

The Brewers just don't have good strikezone judgement which is reflected in the poor OBP.

Agreed. I wonder why this is. Do the players just not have "good eyes"? Are they not being prepared well enough? Or has the coaching staff just decided this is who they are and decided to go with it?

[homer]

My opinion is that guys just have it or they don't. It's rare for something like that to be developed.

[jeffy]

I'm not that upset with the hitting aspect of the game. Hamels was awesome. I am upset though that we lost by two of three UNEARNED runs.

 

That is true but we are supposed to have this great offense that overcomes the expected relatively poor defense.

[thebadge10]

It doesn't help when Dale Sveum addresses his team for the first time after Ned gets canned and tells them he doesn't care what pitches they swing at even if it's in the dirt. The manager next year needs to hold players accountable for swinging at pitches in the dirt or two feet outside (see Hart) or pitches that are two feet high (see Prince)!

[BuckyBrewer61]

It doesn't help when Dale Sveum addresses his team for the first time after Ned gets canned and tells them he doesn't care what pitches they swing at even if it's in the dirt.

I like a lot of the things Dale has done, but I wasn't a fan of his saying that we weren't going to play small ball anymore and that we score by hitting home runs and that's just the way it is. It's one thing to think that, and it may very well be true and proper to go about things that way strategically. However, to me, to say it to the media/his players is basically saying "hey, we win by hitting dingers so go try and hit them. If you strike out by trying to pull one into the seats on 0-2...meh, that's just who we are." Well...something like that...

[bcf5575]

this is the most common at-bat for the brewers since the september slide started:

 

1st pitch fastball - called strike one.

2nd pitch breaking ball out of the zone - swung on and missed strike 2.

 

sometimes it seems that they start every at bat down 0-2. this has been driving my crazy all season, but in particular the past few weeks.

 

the next manager talk should include "see the ball, hit the ball" Stop Thinking!!

[owbc]

You can't really teach plate discipline. I don't know of very many major leaguers who made significant improvements in that department. I'm sure all of the Brewers hitters are aware that you should swing at strikes and not swing at balls.

 

There are some things you can do, like work on hitting to the opposite field, but the best way to improve plate discipline is to get different players.

[Ennder]

My opinion is that guys just have it or they don't. It's rare for something like that to be developed.

 

I disagree with this completely. Plate discipline is something that grows with time for the majority of players. It is why OBP tends to trend upwards with age even though AVG tends to trend downard. Part of the problem is probably that we have a young team that is still learning how to be hitters and not just swingers. Part of it is the drafting philosophy that valued power over contact. Part of it very well may be an organizational approach to hitting too, studying video etc is a huge part of the game now.

 

Personally I think the single largest improvement that most young players make year to year is understanding the strike zone and forcing the pitcher to throw you good pitches to hit. When you see some huge breakout player who suddenly 'gets it' it almost always comes with an improvement in BB/K rates. That is why I said at the start of year that I expected Hardy to be the "break out" player on the team even though it would be subtle. A shift up in OBP while keeping the same SLG makes him a much better hitter but with only a small jump in OPS. It seemed like he was learning how to hit late last year and I figured it would show up this year.

[sheethead]

the next manager talk should include "see the ball, hit the ball" Stop Thinking!!

 

Good point. Seeing how many called third strikes and swings at pitches way out of the zone the Brewers have amassed this year, it looks like many of our hitters are guessing more than they should be and trying to hit home runs all the time. Prince could have taken the walk on a pitch almost 2 feet out of the zone in the 9th. The pressure would have been even greater on Lidge at that point.

 

There are situations where they just need to go back to fundamentals and put the bat on the ball, especially when down 0-2 and 1-2. Home run swings should not happen in these counts, nor should guessing of pitches. If its close to the zone, put the bat on it. Easier said than done of course, but I believe all the other teams in the playoffs do a better job than the Brewers in this aspect (after watching only 2 other games of course, big sample).

 

Gobias, great "Day Man" avatar. Greatest episode ever.

[rluzinski]

I agree more with homer's point of view. Pitch recognition is a skill, not something you develop in a player by holding them accountable for swining at balls. A player can improve his pitch recognition but I'm not sure how much a coaching staff can help.

 

I'm sure a lot of it is also just guessing ( I think they are throwing a ball so I'm not swinging) but I'm not sure how much a coaching staff can help that. Perhaps, if a player is just swinging at too many pitches overall...

 

In the end, I don't care about approach, I care about results. If Melvin can replace someone currently in the lineup with someone better, great. I don't want to here, "He get's on base the same, hits for less power but has a better approach".

[JohnBriggs12]

It's amazing that this team won 90 games with as poor an offense as they have. I can think of lots of Brewer teams that were under .500 that had far better offensive teams than this one. The 1996 team that went 80-82 scored 144 more runs than this team for instance.

 

The lineup for 2009 needs major changes. They can't win next year with 7 guys with 98 or more K's and and low OBP.

[Ennder]

I think the hitting coach can point out flaws in a players approach on video and over time it can have a positive effect on them. It is one of those things that is pretty hard to put a value on but the value is not 0. Ultimately it comes down to the player to make any actual change in his approach and each player improves at a different rate.

 

I don't think we have any natural hitters on the team other than Braun and his approach isn't so great. Braun is the one guy on this team that can swing at a bad pitch and still get hits off of it on a regular basis. Fielder can sometimes but Braun does it a lot more.

[joepepsi]

Hardy raised his obp 20 points. Fielder's approach doesn't really bother me at all. He could draw a few more walks, but I'll take 134 K's, .372 obp almost anytime. Weeks obp was 108 points higher than his batting average. He actually cut down his strikeout rate this year. Unfortunately his walk rate went down too. Kendall walked more than he struck out.

 

The real guilty parties here are Braun, Hart, and Hall. Braun needs to stop trying to win the game with one swing in every at bat; although admittedly he's been pretty successful with this approach. Hall's issues are entirely platoon related. Hart is looking less and less like an everyday player.

 

I'm starting to wonder if Cameron's bat has just slowed down too much to get around on pitches. 32% strikeout rate?

[FVBrewerFan]

Reminds me of an old saying... "If my Aunt had____"

 

Hitters "are what they are" for the most part. Players with higher BA and OBP are simply better at swinging at strikes. If every MLB player was very good at this skill, they would all be hitting over .300. It's just frustrating because guys like Weeks and Hart have a quick bat. They really can wait another tick before they commit, but they just can't make the adjustment.

[Oldcity]

...but why can't this team shorten up with two strikes and put the ball in play?

In my opinion "shortening up" with two strikes is not a good approach. That isn't their problem. Their problem is the inability to recognize a ball out of the strike zone and/or not swing at them very often.

[bucks2281]

It doesn't help when Dale Sveum addresses his team for the first time after Ned gets canned and tells them he doesn't care what pitches they swing at even if it's in the dirt.

 

I think Dale was just trying to be a calming/relaxing influence after Ned was dismissed. It would have been futile to try to tinker with their plate approach with only two weeks remaining. For next year, though, it's a serious issue that Melvin needs to address.

[MJLiverock]

I actually thought their plate discipline wasn't that bad yesterday, they seemed more patient. They took a lot of pitches and laid off the ones in the dirt or at the shoetops. Hamels was pinpointing unbelievably well, so even some of the taken pitches were on the corners or right at the knees and I can't complain about them watching them. The Brewers biggest problem was the swing and miss at the pitches right over the plate like the final Hart strike. Hamels was filthy yesterday and the announcers mentioned he has an over 50% swing and miss rate for the season so there isn't much you can do when his borderline pitches are all strikes and you are going to swing and miss over half the time anyway.

[homer]

I agree more with homer's point of view. Pitch recognition is a skill, not something you develop in a player by holding them accountable for swining at balls. A player can improve his pitch recognition but I'm not sure how much a coaching staff can help.

Agreed. I'm sure guys can 'improve' over minor league numbers but on the whole a guy like Hardy is probably never going to have an OBP 100 points over his BA. I wonder if the guys that improve have higher contact rates than guys that don't?

 

And I think it's more familiarizing yourself with the strikezone than any coaching that can be provided.