Cain and Gillespie

[Hate those Rodents]

With these two, we will be just fine in the OF, even after losing LaPorta and likely Brantley. Gillespie looks to me like someone that has been very underrated by us given how spoiled we've been with great prospects. I think he'll prove to be just fine as a starting corner outfielder for us. Cain has more potential than maybe anyone in our organization and really started to come on. He's my hope for CF for the future.

 

CC was a great trade made better by the fact that, while giving up two great OF prospects, we have two others in the wings ready to be very productive big leaguers.

[paul253]

The more I see of Cain, the more I like him....but I am so pissed we lost Brantley. I am so tired of this all or nothing offense, and Brantley is exactly what we needed. Gillespie reminds me a lot of Corey Hart....solid numbers in the minors but kind of flying under the radar because of higher profile prospects like Escobar Gamel and Jeffress. Man, its hard to argue against the Sabathia trade, but of all the prospects that we really needed, I consider Brantley the one we needed most! A left handed, contact hitter with speed. He wont strike out, he wont try to pull everything, he'll take a walk.....nobody on our team meets that. Cleveland got a nice return for Sabathia.....a true win-win trade.

[jjfanec]

The more I see of Cain, the more I like him....but I am so pissed we lost Brantley. I am so tired of this all or nothing offense, and Brantley is exactly what we needed...an, its hard to argue against the Sabathia trade, but of all the prospects that we really needed, I consider Brantley the one we needed most! A left handed, contact hitter with speed. He wont strike out, he wont try to pull everything, he'll take a walk.....nobody on our team meets that.

It should be noted that Taylor Green (the other rumored guy) had more walks than strikeouts this past season while showing nice pop. He also is a lefty bat that seems to be able to play 2B or 3B (not SS like I initially put) which are needs as well. Both guys fit needs for this team and both would be unfortunate to lose but totally worth CC and the playoffs.

As for the guys this thread is looking at Cain really intrigues me because he looks to be able to play CF well whereas Brantley sounds like he struggles out there.

[dadofandrew]

It's very rare for players to move to more difficult spots. Green has played 2B, but it is odd they moved him if he was ok there. Needless to say, he's not a SS.

[jjfanec]

It's very rare for players to move to more difficult spots. Green has played 2B, but it is odd they moved him if he was ok there. Needless to say, he's not a SS.

I meant to say 3B, I have no clue why I typed SS. Thanks for the heads up. It is actually good that he is a 3B or 2B because we have a couple nice SS.

[paul253]

It should be noted that Taylor Green (the other rumored guy) had more walks than strikeouts this past season while showing nice pop. He also is a lefty bat that seems to be able to play 2B or 3B (not SS like I initially put) which are needs as well. Both guys fit needs for this team and both would be unfortunate to lose but totally worth CC and the playoffs.

As for the guys this thread is looking at Cain really intrigues me because he looks to be able to play CF well whereas Brantley sounds like he struggles out there.

 

Thats true, although Brantley's K:BB ratio was almost 2:1 whereas Green had i believe 2 more walks than k's. Brantley also had 28 stolen bases to Green's 4. Brantley's average was like 30 points higher, and he had a higher OBP. Green slugged a lot higher and had more extra base hits and probably plays better defense, from what i've read on here.. Don't get me wrong, Taylor Green is a good good player, but I think we needed what Brantley would have brought to the table much more than we need what Taylor Green would bring. I'm really disappointed Cleveland took Brantley.

[yoshii8]

paul253, according to their agent, Clevland has not made a choice yet, it seems it was just speculation by Gammons. So we might still have Brantley in the system.

[mkm13]

The Brewers already have 2 guys that do not strike out much, have more walks than K's, and have no power (Kendall and Counsell). Brantley does have good value if he has a BA around .300 and can steal 20 times a year in the majors, or somehow gets some power, but he is not a sure thing by any means.

[homer]

By the time Brantley gets to the majors, neither Kendall nor Counsell will be on the team (knock on wood).

[mkm13]

I never said they would be, I was just trying to make a point that guys like that are not that hard to find and they do not have much value unless they have great speed or OBP ability.

[paul253]

I was just trying to make a point that guys like that are not that hard to find and they do not have much value unless they have great speed or OBP ability.

 

Well Brantley did have 28 stolen bases, and his OBP was darn near .400. He slugged much higher than either Counsell or Kendall, and hit for a much higher average. He struck out once every 15 at bats, compared to Kendalls once every 11 at bats and Counsell's once every 6 at bats. Plus, Brantley's walk to k ratio was almost 2:1, whereas Kendall and Counsell's was much closer to 1:1. When purely looking at more walks than strikeouts you can include all three of them together, but to me, thats where the comparison should end. I realize he hasnt gone above AA, but he proved himself very well there.

[Hate those Rodents]

The question in a way becomes Cain vs. Brantley and Gillespie vs. (a poor man's) Laporta

 

Can Cain play better defense at CF than Brantley?

Can Cain steal bases as regularly as Brantley?

Can Cain have a similar OBP to Brantley?

 

Can Gillespie play a better corner outfield than LaPorta?

Can Gillespie be a big run producer?

Can Gillespie eclipse 25 home runs as a full time starter?

Can Gillespie come close to LaPorta in slugging %.

 

Many of these can't yet be answered and won't for several years. But I am encouraged and VERY optimistic about Cain and Gillespie.

[jjfanec]

The question in a way becomes Cain vs. Brantley and Gillespie vs. (a poor man's) Laporta

 

Can Cain play better defense at CF than Brantley?

Can Cain steal bases as regularly as Brantley?

Can Cain have a similar OBP to Brantley?

I think the Cain vs Brantley debate is very interesting. From everything I have heard Cain is a more natural CF than Brantley, but I have no firsthand knowledge. Stolen bases seem to be pretty close. It is the OBP and BB to K rate that Brantley has a decided advantage. Cain has a large edge in the Slugging and OPS stats. Brantley is a year younger than Cain not sure how much that matters.

Brantley seems more like a lead-off hitter than Cain and he is a lefty which is a plus for the team as it currently stands.

[mkm13]

I was just trying to make a point that guys like that are not that hard to find and they do not have much value unless they have great speed or OBP ability.

 

Well Brantley did have 28 stolen bases, and his OBP was darn near .400. He slugged much higher than either Counsell or Kendall, and hit for a much higher average. He struck out once every 15 at bats, compared to Kendalls once every 11 at bats and Counsell's once every 6 at bats. Plus, Brantley's walk to k ratio was almost 2:1, whereas Kendall and Counsell's was much closer to 1:1. When purely looking at more walks than strikeouts you can include all three of them together, but to me, thats where the comparison should end. I realize he hasnt gone above AA, but he proved himself very well there.

Comparing Kendall and Counsell's major league numbers to Brantley's AA numbers in an extremely hitters friendly ball park will not tell you much. There were a lot of guys in AA that put up ridiculous numbers. Not all of them will turn out to be quality major league players. Also, there is a difference in running against AA catchers and pitchers and MLB catchers and pitchers. I realize Brantley had good numbers in AA, I am not sold he will in the MLB.

[dadofandrew]

Huntsville is a pitcher's park.

[paul253]

Comparing Kendall and Counsell's major league numbers to Brantley's AA numbers in an extremely hitters friendly ball park will not tell you much. There were a lot of guys in AA that put up ridiculous numbers. Not all of them will turn out to be quality major league players. Also, there is a difference in running against AA catchers and pitchers and MLB catchers and pitchers. I realize Brantley had good numbers in AA, I am not sold he will in the MLB.

 

Completely understand where you're coming from in terms in majors vs minors. I was just pointing out that other than more walks than strikeouts, the numbers arent even comparable. Brantley blows them away in just about every other category. Besides, the walks vs strikeouts ratio, stolen bases, even on base percentage.....even if it were a hitters park, that really doesnt even affect any of those stats.

[mkm13]

Link? From what I remember when looking at minor league translations and other comments throughout the year Huntsville is not a pitchers park.

[mkm13]

And Salome and Gamels numbers in AA are way better than Fielders and Brauns in the majors. Any hitters numbers will be much better in AA. But yes, Brantleys numbers in AA are better than our 2 worst hitters on our major league team. I am not saying he is not good, he has a chance to be a good major league player, but at this point..he is still a prospect who may or may not improve enough to be a good major leaguer.

[pogokat]

"Any hitters numbers will be much better in AA"

 

Funny that you mention that, because other than braun, none of our mlb guys have hit like laporta and salome did at AA this year...Hart was the league MVP there a few years back with an .800 OPS

[paul253]

But yes, Brantleys numbers in AA are better than our 2 worst hitters on our major league team. I am not saying he is not good, he has a chance to be a good major league player, but at this point..he is still a prospect who may or may not improve enough to be a good major leaguer.

 

Dont take this the wrong way, but you are the one who originally compared Brantley to Kendall and Counsell, not me. And you said players like that are easy to find, which they are not. Yes, Kendall and Counsell have more walks than strikeouts, and yes, Brantleys numbers are in double A. But for his level, Brantley is a very good hitter, and theres no reason to think he wont continue to progress. Obviously only time will tell when he hits the majors, but all we have to look at for any minor league prospect is minor league numbers. Cain, Lucroy and Green may also wind up not doing anything in the major leagues, but looking at the four of them, like I said, I feel that what Brantley brings offensively is closer to what I feel this team needs than any of the other guys. I am not saying he's going to be an allstar, but i think he'll be a good hitter.

 

Gillespie really reminds me a lot of Hart....and ironically enough may end up replacing him.

 

Cain seems to have a really high upside and could end up being a great centerfielder for years to come. I am excited to see both of them in Milwaukee.

[endaround]

Yes you have minor league numbers, and in those minor league numbers you have an ISO of .079. Counsell's ISO is .089 this year. Kendall's is .078. In the major leagues. Brantley is young and has time, but he's not ready and doesn't look to be ready until 2010 at the earliest. Its hard to hit .300 with a good OBP with no power in the major leagues. Castillo has done it and Ichirio has done it. But more often than not you're looking at a Juan Pierre. And that fact that everybody hit at Hunstville this year makes me question a few things. As it is Hunstville this year had a park effect of .98 with a HR effect of 1.10 which is an increase from .96 and 1.03 last year

[paul253]

Ryan Theriot is currently doing it as well. He's exactly the kind of guy Milwaukee needs, IMO (Theriot)

[Gobias Industries]

Chone Figgins did it this year. .276 BA with ~.370 OBP and a ~.310 SLG.

[And That]

There are numerous examples of guys who have had good seasons with extremely low ISOs and high OBPs, but very few examples of guys who have made good careers with extremely low ISOs and high OBPs.

[mancl]

I'm intrigued by Cain. Is he a middle of the order hitter or can he leadoff?

 

Thanks