How much credit does Dale Sveum deserve?

[TSack27]

And as that latest update starts - "The Brewers don't hit with runners in scoring position. That is the common denominator."

Should be a safe assumption that most of us can agree that there are some black holes in the lineup that need to be filled for any manager to succeed further. Having Kaplers's bat available could have made the manager look better the last couple of weeks (I still wonder how things would have tourned out with another left-handed power bat in the line-up and a rock-steady glove at third... sad that Koskie's concussion robbed him and fans of some more potentially good seasons)

[BADGERJOBOB]

If you can't pitch Suppan in the playoffs than Attanasio's infatuation with Suppan was the blunder for the ages. (Jeffrey Hammonds territory) Further adds to my leeriness about Attanasio's involvement in baseball decisions.

 

Oh come on. Suppan was brought in for the right reasons, its just that the results on the mound were not what we desired. Unfortunately, it was quite obvious to everyone else but Sveum that Suppan should not have been started this past Sunday based on his overall performance from the last few months and this one of the major reasons why I vote no on Sveum coming back next year.

 

Sveum did a very good job with the pitching staff the last few weeks of the year up until this past Sunday. This past Sunday was an all hands on deck type of game. All pitchers except CC ready and waiting. Use anyone and everyone to win Sunday as we would have CC pitch Tuesday. And if you must start Suppan, make sure your bullpen is ready at a moments notice.

 

It was obvious once again that Suppan did not have it early on as he struggled to get through the lineup the first 2 innings. (I actually mentioned to a friend of mine that if the Brewers would have made it to Suppan's at-bat in the second inning, I would have pinch hit for him and if we don't get to his at-bat, have Parra and McClung warmed up and ready as the third inning was key - second time around the order. That third inning with Howard coming up with 2 runners on was HUGE and in that one position it was a no win situation with Suppan on the mound. In all likelihood, Howard would have crushed Suppan if he pitched to him and Sveum knew it but instead of bringing in another pitcher he let Suppan face Burrell, a hitter who owned Suppan during his career to come up and hit. BIG MISTAKE for a team that can't score runs. The radio announcer was all over the decision and for obvious good reasons. AND GAME OVER. Just like that in the third inning of the biggest game of the series.

 

For all of the good Sveum did with the pitching matchups leading up to this last game, he undid all of the positives in this one game.

 

Having said that, I was not thrilled with the way Sveum stuck with the lineup. Very Yost like in being stubborn to a fault. It wasn't working and it was as clear as day and yet he wouldn't admit defeat. Cameron should not have been batting leadoff and Hart needed to be dropped lower in the lineup or better yet benched. Maybe he didn't want to go back on his words but frankly I can't believe he was dumb enough to declare things like he was sticking with Cameron as his leadoff hitter no matter what. That shows a huge flaw in his coaching ability. The ability to make changes based on continuously changing environment. Anyways, here is hoping we get a far more experienced and successful coach next year.

[sweepscc]

If you can't pitch Suppan in the playoffs than Attanasio's infatuation with Suppan was the blunder for the ages. (Jeffrey Hammonds territory) Further adds to my leeriness about Attanasio's involvement in baseball decisions.

Oh come on. Suppan was brought in for the right reasons, its just that the results on the mound were not what we desired.

I have no doubt Attanasio's intentions were pure. His logic sucked though. As is being talked about in another thread, "big game pitcher" is not the "right" reason to bring a guy in for big money. If we were getting Suppan just to be an inning filler we should have kept Doug Davis on the cheap. We were getting Suppan for the playoffs is a main reason Attanasio gave.

 

In the NLCS, Suppan pitched eight shutout innings for the victory in Game 3, then allowed one run over seven innings in Game 7, which the Cardinals went on to win 3-1 on Yadier Molina's two-run homer in the ninth. St. Louis then went on to beat Detroit in five games for the World Series title.

Brewers owner Mark Attanasio said that kind of performance was important to him as he tries to make the Brewers a "perennially competitive" team.
"What you want to do is add a winner," Attanasio said.

 

Attanasio invited the pitcher and his agent to dinner at his home last week.

"It was a very relaxed evening," Attanasio said. "There was a lot of give and take, I got to know Jeff. I came away impressed."

[DonMoney4Mgr]

I haven't been impressed with sveum that much. I thought in game 5 he ignored the splits against Hamels and went with Hall and Weeks and it hurt them. I don't know where the decision to start soup came from, but the fact that Gallardo was available to pitch yet didn't start, baffles me. IMO, this organization's love for overpaid veterans that don't produce, is going to cost them a lot of wins over the next several years. A little off topic, but they didn't follow the model of successful small market teams, and now there are a ton of question marks and bad contracts.

 

Forget Sveum and get a manager in here with some post season experience.

[Ennder]

The whole Brewer's don't hit with RISP was off base as well though. Four teams hit lower overall than the Brewers on the year, so should it be surprise only 3 teams hit lower overall with RISP? We actually rated slightly better with RISP than without.

[logan82]

I still don't see where in that article Svuem says anything about abandoning small ball. It might be implied, but it seemed to me he was talking around the issue. This quote in particular seems to indicate he prefers small ball.

 

"Teams that have done it in the past, it's a very difficult way to score runs. It's an easy way, don't get me wrong, with one swing of the bat you've scored a run. But, on the other hand, you get 600 plate appearances and a prolific home-run hitter only hits 35. That's 565 at-bats that they don't."

[danzig6767]

The whole Brewer's don't hit with RISP was off base as well though. Four teams hit lower overall than the Brewers on the year, so should it be surprise only 3 teams hit lower overall with RISP? We actually rated slightly better with RISP than without.

This is one reason i'd like to see next year a player or two added that hits for a high average. I understand that stats like OBP/SLG/OPS are more important, but this years team had to many guys who hit for poor batting averages and thus it's no surprise the team struggled with RISP.

[BADGERJOBOB]

In the NLCS, Suppan pitched eight shutout innings for the victory in Game 3, then allowed one run over seven innings in Game 7, which the Cardinals went on to win 3-1 on Yadier Molina's two-run homer in the ninth. St. Louis then went on to beat Detroit in five games for the World Series title.

Brewers owner Mark Attanasio said that kind of performance was important to him as he tries to make the Brewers a "perennially competitive" team.

"What you want to do is add a winner," Attanasio said.

I don't think his logic was that off base. We had and still do have a very young talented pitching staff with little experience and no playoff experience.

 

Suppan was the right type of pitcher to bring into the fold. A pitcher with a lot of experience that performed great in the playoffs. A pitcher who won at the highest stage when there was a lot of pressure on him.

 

I don't see anywhere where Attanasio stated that Suppan was going to be our ace but yes someone who we would count on in our quest to make the playoffs and succeed in the playoffs. Unfortunately, he couldn't keep up his great numbers from August of this year. His ERA for August was 3.00 in 6 games pitched. He had nothing left in the tank the last month of the year for whatever reason and his prior outing before yesterday, while a very good outcome(1ER in 5 innings), proved he didn't have it in the end (9 baserunners in 5 innings).

 

I know it seems like I am speaking from both ends of my mouth but Suppan was probably the right pitcher to target 2 years ago and, based on his production from the last month of the year, he should have been on a very very short leash yesterday.

 

 

(edit: long nested quote / paragraph divisions --1992)

[homer]

If Sveum had brought in Shouse to face Howard who was leading off the 9th inning of game 3 I'd consider him for the job. But since he brought in his closer just cuz, well, he's the closer then he doesn't deserve it.

[logan82]

If Sveum had brought in Shouse to face Howard who was leading off the 9th inning of game 3 I'd consider him for the job. But since he brought in his closer just cuz, well, he's the closer then he doesn't deserve it.

I think that inning started with 3 lefties unless I am mistaken.

 

Edit: Nope, 2 lefties and a switchy.

[Ennder]

This is one reason i'd like to see next year a player or two added that hits for a high average. I understand that stats like OBP/SLG/OPS are more important, but this years team had to many guys who hit for poor batting averages and thus it's no surprise the team struggled with RISP.

I'm not sure I buy into the fact that we need more high Average guys specifically. We definitely need higher OBP though and AVG is one way to go about it. If I had to lead the league in AVG, OBP or SLG I'd pick OBP every time.

[bucks2281]

Exactly, homer. I was begging for Shouse to pitch to Howard. The AB to Howard in the 9th was a situation screaming for the LOOGY. But, you know the reason Torres pitched the 9th was because he was closer and his job is to get the final three outs! Torres narrowly averted disaster -- the Pedro Feliz DP ball to Bill Hall was a hard hit ball.

 

Then, the whole starting Suppan over an available Gallardo was a HUGE blunder. Sveum made two egrigious errors this weekend. I seriously want an explanation from the organization as to why Suppan was chosen over Gallardo. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we made the playoffs, but Dale Sveum cannot be invited back.

[brewcrewkid14]

I'm not sure I buy into the fact that we need more high Average guys specifically. We definitely need higher OBP though and AVG is one way to go about it. If I had to lead the league in AVG, OBP or SLG I'd pick OBP every time.

You need to have guys to hit you in though, even if you do have a high OBP. All they had this year was guys who would hit you in with a shot to the gap or a long-ball. It was rare to see a single drive a run in.

 

That's exactly why we can't trade Hardy, but that's a topic for another thread.

 

 

(edit: long nested quote --1992)

[Postseason2006]

Batting Hall and Cameron 1-2 was Yost-like along with starting the "gritty" postseason vet Suppan. I am still short of words on why start Suppan if he had the intent of using Gallardo. Just a head scratcher and lost in the sauce as Yost.

[1992casey]

Added to Designated Threads List. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

Also note that the Who's the manager in 2009? thread has been designated for discussion of Dale's 2009 managerial performance.

[rluzinski]

Suppan was the right type of pitcher to bring into the fold. A pitcher with a lot of experience that performed great in the playoffs. A pitcher who won at the highest stage when there was a lot of pressure on him.

 

And all that experience proved worthless, while mediocre Bush shined. So what's the point in giving value to such a thing?

[Ennder]

Suppan was the right type of pitcher to bring into the fold. A pitcher with a lot of experience that performed great in the playoffs. A pitcher who won at the highest stage when there was a lot of pressure on him.

 

And all that experience proved worthless, while mediocre Bush shined. So what's the point in giving value to such a thing?

Not saying I disagree with your opinion of Suppan and 'playoff experience', but I think this is a horrible example to point to. Suppan pretty obviously was not fully healthy in September, his stats were terrible compared to his 3 year averages and all you can say about his start this year in the playoffs is it should have been obvious that he wasn't healthy and shouldn't have pitched. It was as smart a move as sending Sheets out there would have been.

[brewerguy71]

Late comer here to the discussion, but I dont feel that Sveum really had much to do at all with the Brewers making the playoffs.

 

If it werent for the Pirates playing like the season was already over, and the Cubs starting a AAA lineup, the Brewers would have went right on playing the way that they had with Ned in charge. In fact, they did...anemic offense, lack of executions, etc.

 

As for Suppan starting game 4, it was the right choice, injured or ineffective or not. Gallardo on short rest was a recipe for disaster. You dont bring a 22 year old kid, who has only pitched once since coming back from surgery less than 6 months prior, to pitch in that situation. Bad move when looking at the long term outlook of the team. He had a hard enough time throwing strikes in game 1. What makes you think it would have been better? His performance later in game 4 is completely out of context...Phillies had the game in hand already...they were approaching the rest of the game cautiously...same goes for Parra.

[rluzinski]

As for Suppan starting game 4, it was the right choice, injured or ineffective or not. Gallardo on short rest was a recipe for disaster. You dont bring a 22 year old kid, who has only pitched once since coming back from surgery less than 6 months prior, to pitch in that situation.

Again, you are working under the completely unproven assumption that all else equal, the grizzled vet will outperform the scared youngin'. I realize that baseball reporters can't cover a postseason game for 5 seconds without assuming the same thing but I call bull. And when the two pitchers in question are lightyears apart in actual skill, who cares? I'll take 3-4 innings from the young, talented starter over a struggling, mediocre vet with playoff experience.

[bucks2281]

As for Suppan starting game 4, it was the right choice, injured or ineffective or not. Gallardo on short rest was a recipe for disaster. You dont bring a 22 year old kid, who has only pitched once since coming back from surgery less than 6 months prior, to pitch in that situation

 

Suppan has pitched like he's been hurt all of September. His start on September 26 was shaky, too. Yo did have some trouble throwing strikes on Wednesday, but the defense buckled in the only inning that he did give up runs. Jeff Suppan has throwing meatballs since September 4. I think you have to roll the dice and start Gallardo.

 

His performance later in game 4 is completely out of context...Phillies had the game in hand already...they were approaching the rest of the game cautiously...same goes for Parra.

 

I disagree. Baseball isn't like football where there is garbage time and players are "running through the motions." There's no doubt that the Phillies hitters had the same mentality against Suppan as they did against Gallardo -- they're trying to get on base.

 

But, I do agree that Sveum played no part in getting the Brewers to the playoffs. I like the way he shuffled the rotation, but that's about it.

[BADGERJOBOB]

I think it was a mistake to start Suppan if Gallardo was available but here is where I really question Sveum's strategy. A win in game four gets us to game 5 with our ace on the mound who probably goes deep into that game win or lose so chances are your bullpen would have limited use. So knowing that and going into game four without a reliable starter, isn't it all hands on deck for game 4? In other words, all 11 remaining pitchers (including Bush who suppossedly has a rubber arm and can pitch back to back days) should be available and used if necessary.

 

So for whatever reason you start Suppan in the hopes he comes through with is experience and you ignore all of his September starts. Don't you at least get pitchers ready to come in to the ballgame in the third inning if we get into any kind of trouble considering that he struggled to get through the first 2 innings? I would think alarms are going off in the third when Howard comes to the plate. Your already down 1-0 and frankly you can't afford to go down 2-0 or worse. So you bring in one of your 3 lefties to face Howard (the preferred choice) or you walk Howard and bring in someone else to face Burrell due to the fact that Burrell has basically owned Suppan for his career and had a hit against him already in that game.

 

Why you can't do is lose the game in the third inning when your facing the meat of their order in a do or die game. Heck I would have had pitchers warming up in the bottom of the second inning to pinch hit for Suppan if we got to his at-bat because that meant there would have been at least 2 runners on base and hard up for some runs. Sveum managed the pitchers very well down the stretch but then he completely abandoned that philosophy in the game that mattered the most.

[bjkrautk]

The question that we don't know is what limitations were placed on Yo's pitching during game 4. If Gallardo could only go 3 innings, on short rest, coming off an injury, then it's not as open-and-shut a question as to whether he should have started. I'm resigned to never knowing whether this was the case.

 

 

My main gripes with Sveum were: keeping Hart in the lineup in the playoffs, even against RHP, and Bill Hall in the # 2 spot in the lineup against LHP (or ever). I was not a huge fan of Cameron leadoff, given his hitting of late, but as has been discussed ad nauseam here, there is no 'good' candidate to bat first right now.

[1992casey]

Please keep the board quote guidelines in mind when posting. I shortened the quoted material in one post above. In another, because the post stood quite well on its own, I removed the long quote entirely.

[TooLiveBrew]

and Bill Hall in the # 2 spot in the lineup against LHP (or ever).

 

Given Hall's propensity to mash LHP ('08: .893 OPS; Career: .847), I thought it was nice to see Sveum attempting to utilize Hall's skills as best he could. I actually felt that Hall was a solid choice at #2 against lefties.

[DonMoney4Mgr]

I'm tired of all the endorsements Sveum is receiving, the latest from Terry Francona. When do you ever hear major league managers bad mouth their assistants. Does Bobby Cox lose credibility for gloating about Nedly before we hired him? Probably not. Even though he was less than successful. Players too are trumpeting Sveum's case to be manager. None of this, however, convinces me he is right for the job. On the big stage in the playoffs Dale made some mistakes. Playing Hall and Weeks against Hamels, and starting Soup in an elimination game, to name a few. That's all I have to go by, so I say find someone else.