Ben Sheets Appreciation Thread

[jimmyjeromehardy7]

That's not how it was suppose to end.

[splitterpfj]

Sheets' situation has gotten very interesting.

 

There he sits, with an elbow injury, no structural damage, etc, but he can't pitch right now. The Brewers will want draft picks when he leaves, so they are compelled to offer him arbitration.

 

What if no one offers him the huge deal he'll be looking for, because this most recent shutdown has scared them off?

 

Ben could wind up accepting arbitration, and coming back here on a one-year deal. I don't expect it, but this turn of events has made it a possibility.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I'm glad that Ben gets to experience a playoff run and postseason play with the Brewers. He stuck it out for 8 years, taking a contract that went into his first 2 free agent years, when he could have played it year to year, and waited for the BIG payday.

 

I'm glad that Ben's done in Milwaukee after this year, not making starts or not getting out of the 3rd inning in several starts per year with one nagging minor injury after the other.

 

I don't hate the guy, I don't bear him ill will, I hope he cashes in and plays well for his new (american league) team. It's just that as a fan, it's tough to root for the guy when his constant, repetitive fluke injuries seem to take him out when the team needs him most.

 

Yes yes, I know, he doesn't do it on purpose, and I know he wants to be on that mound. But that doesn't change the fact that he's not, and again, as a fan, that's just so frustrating to deal with.

 

I realize that there's a strong chance that whoever he's replaced with won't be as good, and I can live with that.

[rluzinski]

Anyone who thinks Ben Sheets didn't earn his money this year isn't looking at this very rationally, IMO. 198 innings, 3.09 ERA. $12 mil. If he doesn't pitch an inning in the post season (which is a pretty darn good guess right now), he was still a steal this year.

 

Heck, the whole contract wasn't really that bad. Not nearly as bad as some suggest, at least. Sheets averaged 150 IP/year over his 4 year contract, with a 3.47 ERA. The innings total is disappointing but those numbers have plenty of value. If you don't think so it's because you are looking at it from the perspective of a disgruntled fan.

 

And if Sheets hadn't tried to go yesterday, people would have complained that he wasn't a gamer and was just being a big baby, blah blah blah. It was a no win situation for him.

[Rhett16]

I wish Ben Sheets the best of luck wherever he ends up. He has all the talent in the world, and by all accounts he's a good guy but to me there's just something in his make up that's missing. I am sure people will jump on me for even saying that, and I can't quite put my finger on it, but for the type of money he is going to want (and probably get) I just don't think he's worth it at this point. For the last 4 years he has averaged barely 150 innings a year. It's respectable, yes. Maybe I'm just selfish but I want more than that from our big game ace.

 

That being said, I again thank him for his service here and wish him the best of luck and good health wherever he ends up.

[logan82]

Ben could wind up accepting arbitration, and coming back here on a one-year deal. I don't expect it, but this turn of events has made it a possibility.

 

If we somehow end up with Sheets on a one year deal, that would be highway robbery on our part. I missed seeing Sheets do interviews this year. That guy is just funny.

[rluzinski]

I think the general consensus at BF.net is that Ben Sheets shouldn't be resigned. I don't think he should be. Too much risk. I just think it's unfair to suggest (as many seem to) that a 3.5 ERA for 150 IP/year was worthless. Hell, I think many teams would be happy to get that for what the Brewers paid.

 

I've always liked Sheets, not just for his performance but his personality as well. He was also just a goof that didn't care if other people thought he was a goof. I got enough "athlete-speak" from everyone else.

[logan82]

I think the general consensus at BF.net is that Ben Sheets shouldn't be resigned. I don't think he should be. Too much risk. I just think it's unfair to suggest (as many seem to) that a 3.5 ERA for 150 IP/year was worthless. Hell, I think many teams would be happy to get that for what the Brewers paid.

I agree we shouldn't sign him,but it is more the multiple years he is likely to get that would bother me about the contract. If we were talking about 2 years, I think it would be a good deal. When we start getting into those 4+ year deals that is when I start not liking it. I would be really surprised to see less than a 4 year deal for Sheets. Like ennder has stated, his injuries are not really that bad. I just don't like any free agent deals of 3-4+ years. I prefer contracts of that length to be given out to players in their arbitration years.

 

Like it or not, we are always going to have a much smaller payroll than many clubs and the best long term idea is to keep payroll flexibility. The payroll flexability thing really goes for all clubs, but $15M for the Brewers is drastically different than $15M for some of the other clubs.

[danzig6767]

I don't know if i'm the only one who gets this feeling, but even though i think Ben is very happy for the team success, it seems when i see him interviewed that he wants a change of scenery himself. I doubt the team intends to seriously try to reign him anyways, but i question how interested he'd be.

[cnycerveceros]

I know people here don't need to hear the rational arguments for or against Ben's overall quality. I do think it's unfortunate some of the things I've heard less knowledgeable fans say about Ben the last few weeks. People forget 2002-2004 when he was consistently one of the better pitchers the Brewers have ever put on the mound. He pitched well, and a lot of innings, for terrible teams and I think it's simply unfortunate that it put such a strain on his arm. Now when the team is good, he's worn down. I also think Ben gets punished by pitching in the context of Brett Favre. Casual sports fans in Wisconsin (and everywhere really) are moved by a guy playing hurt. Ben is big enough to say he can't play when he's hurt because he doesn't want to hurt the team. I've always said this, and I think Saturday demonstrates my point. Favre wasted entire Packer seasons by playing hurt, Ben let somebody else go out when he thought his body wouldn't let him play.

 

But, in the end, PLAYOFFS BABY!

[jeffy]

I do think it's unfortunate some of the things I've heard less knowledgeable fans say about Ben the last few weeks.

 

It is really sad that the guy pitched his arm off for this team this year and he seems to get little credit from the fans for it. Yes, the last few games of the season are important, but without Ben Sheets performing as he did in April-June is this team even a position to compete for the wild card at the end of the season? Without Sheets in April-June does the team do well enough to motivate the owner to go and get CC for the 2nd half?

[Invader3K]

I want to hear the Sheets haters next year when we have Jeff Suppan pitching instead of Benny.

 

This doesn't really make any sense. We have both Suppan and Sheets now. If Sheets does walk (and especially if we can't resign CC) I assume the Brewers will get at least one upper caliber type pitcher to replace them. Yes, we'll probably still have Suppan, but it's not like his presence precludes Sheets from being in Milwaukee next year. To move on, is it likely the Brewers will offer arbitration at this point?

[Thurston Fluff]

I think the hate for Sheets on this site is completely uncalled for. He has been a great Brewer that has given his heart and soul to this team.

 

Many player have given their hearts and sole to the team they were on. That is the minimum requirement and nothing to brag about.

 

Frequently injured, yes. But please explain how he could be much more than a .500 pitcher, given the terrible Brewers teams he's been on? You probably think Matt Cain is a bad pitcher, too.

 

Lincecum seems to do ok with a bad team. Seaver won almost half of his teams games one year. If a pitcher is a top level guy playing on bad teams only goes so far as an excuse. Especially considering Sheets history is not all about being on bad teams. He hasn't been on a bad team for a few years now. The one year the team was below .500 in the last four was mostly because of him not being healthy enough to help.

 

The nature of Sheets injury does not make him nearly as big a risk as a Harden, Prior, Schmidt type of player. I think the anti-sheets crowd really overestimates how worrisome his injury history is. Assuming the arm pain is just normal overused pitcher type pain and nothing serious I'd assume he gets something like a 3-4 year deal for good money. He has had one major injury in his career and it isnt' in an area that is expected to have a lot of repeat injuries.

 

Right and elbow injury is so easy to overlook. A couple years ago it was an inner ear disorder and people said at least it wasn't an injury. Then he had the lat. injury and at least it wasn't his arm. Then came the finger. Well it still isn't the arm. Then it was his groin. See still not the arm. Now it's the elbow and you go to the at least it's not the shoulder some guys have it worse argument. Come on. An elbow injury on a guy who has not been healthy for years is serious no matter how you look at it. I don't know how you can seriously say an elbow injury is not an area that you expect to have a lot of repeat injuries on.

In 2008 he was healthy until the last month of the season and who knows how serious that is. He was heavily abused by Yost and still managed a 3.09 ERA and .674 OPS against.

 

Yea that 6 1/3 inning per start is really heavy abuse. Less than 200 innings over the course of a year is really heavy abuse. Never being asked to pitch on short rest is really heavy abuse. Pitching in strict order vs every five days is really heavy abuse.

 

I just think it's unfair to suggest (as many seem to) that a 3.5 ERA for 150 IP/year was worthless. Hell, I think many teams would be happy to get that for what the Brewers paid.

 

I guess it just depends on what you need. Soup was given the money because he could go every fifth day not because every start would be so great. The Cubs got rid of the injury prone high level pitchers and paid for average players like Lilly and Marquis because they needed the stability of guys who could go every fifth day. The A's traded on of the best pitchers in the league for very little for the same reason. Give me an average pitcher who you can rely on and I will give you predictably. Give me a high ceiling, injury prone, guy and I will give you heartbreak mixed in with an occasional great run. There are merits to both types. It all depends one what you really need.

 

As to my appreciation of Sheets I look at him a lot like I did Jenkins. He was someone I cold enjoy and feel good about when things were their darkest. I will always appreciate him for that. But his injuries and his all too regular declines in the second second half of the season make me not really care if he is a Brewer after this season.

 

If they do offer him arby and he does accept I hope they try to use him in relief next year and see what happens. If they can spend $10 million on Gagne I think $12 on a one year experiment with Sheets would be ok.

[rluzinski]

Backcatcher, I expect more you with regard to Sheets' win/loss record. Look at his run support (ESPN has it) for his career in Milwaukee, vs. his ERA. It makes complete sense why his record is what it is. Cherry picking a couple of pitchers proves nothing.

 

And Suppan can be counted on so much that he's probably the 5th best pitching option for the postseason. Don't see any value in that.

[endaround]

5th? Nope, I'd put him behind Villaneua, McClung, Parra, and DiFelice though you could argue about DiFelice.

[JohnBriggs12]

I think ender is wrong when he discounts Sheets' injury factor. Coming down with a sore elbow and shutting down at playoff time are huge issues for any team looking to sign a pitcher to a long term big money deal. Besides, there are a lot of pretty good healthy pitchers available this offseason. Teams that can afford the top dollar guys aren't going to risk having Sheets be another Jason Schmidt or Carl Pavano.

[endaround]

Who are these pretty good healthy pitchers? Brad Penny? AJ Burnett? Jon Smoltz? Pedro Martinez? Andy Pettite? Randy Wolf? Tom Glavine? Mike Hampton?

 

Brewers fans tend to be really myopic when it comes to pitcher injuries.

[Ennder]

I think ender is wrong when he discounts Sheets' injury factor. Coming down with a sore elbow and shutting down at playoff time are huge issues for any team looking to sign a pitcher to a long term big money deal. Besides, there are a lot of pretty good healthy pitchers available this offseason. Teams that can afford the top dollar guys aren't going to risk having Sheets be another Jason Schmidt or Carl Pavano.

Like I said, if it is nothing serious it is no big deal. If they find something wrong then yeah it changes things. When a pitcher spikes heavily in IP arm and elbow soreness is completely normal though.

 

As for the claim above that Sheets wasn't abused, he was towards the top of the PAP(pitcher abuse points) ratings for most of the season. Yost pushed him way harder than he should have considering he was coming off 3 partial seasons. There was absolutely no excuse for it and people were upset about it way before Sheets got elbow discomfirt. Seems like this web site expects every pitcher to go 200+ IP ever year when in reality usually less than 40 pitchers a year reach that mark. It is actually very rare to find a pitcher who can go 200+ IP even 3 years in a row these days.

 

Here is a list of pitchers who have gone 200+ IP each of the last 3+ years. The list only has 8 names on it. If you take it to two years the list has about 15 names on it.

 

Halladay - 3 years

Santana - 5 years

Webb - 5 years

Buehrle - 8 years

Haren - 4 years

Oswalt - 5 years

Vazquez - 4 years

Pettitte - 4 years

 

This year only 36 pitchers in all of baseball pitched more innings than Sheets, so just over 1 pitcher per team.

[yoshii8]

I really appreciate all that Ben Sheets has done for the Brewers organization, and can't stand when people say that he is not a competitor because he has gotten hurt in key situations. He does not want to be hurt, and I'm sure he feels 5 times worse than any of us do when he has to sit out. Bottom line is that without his outstanding first half, and 200 innings pitched, we wouldn't have been even close to a playoff spot, wouldn't have acquired CC, and would be talking about another disappointing season in Milwaukee, so thank you Ben Sheets.

 

I would love to see him brought back on a one or two year deal, but unless his injury is very serious, I think he will get a long term deal, and sign elsewhere. I will definitely miss seeing him in a Brewers uniform.

[Thurston Fluff]

As for the claim above that Sheets wasn't abused, he was towards the top of the PAP(pitcher abuse points) ratings for most of the season.

 

Oh god not another way to excuse a player from doing what he was paid to do. How does abuse points this year excuse him from being unreliable for three years in a row? If he was abused this year it was an abuse caused by his own inability to perform when needed. Abuse is too strong a word for asking a player in the prime of his career to do what he was paid to do and had done several times in the past..

 

Yost pushed him way harder than he should have considering he was coming off 3 partial seasons.

 

 

No he didn't. He pushed him as hard as he needed to make the playoffs while still being reasonable with his workload. Averaging 6 1/3 innings is not asking too much of him. If it is then I think that is all that needs to be said about Sheets ability as a starting pitcher. If you take out the two games he came out of early he is still under 7 innings per appearance. That is not unreasonable to ask of a starting pitcher his age.

[TheCrew07]

The problem I've been pondering in my mind is that they just got Yo to where he could have pitched 200 innings this year... what does that mean for next year? Is he back to tossing 170 again? 150? Do they run him out there until he gets worn down like Parra this year?

 

edit. I wasn't clear, I thinking about this in relation to the argument that Sheets was abused... First of all, I think PAP is crap, plain and simple... it's like throwing VORP at me and saying player A is better than player B because VORP says so. PAP is so arbitrary that I'm simply never going to get behind it... Furthermore, I really don't see any way any organziation can baby a pitcher coming from a down year, or 2, or 3. If he's your best pitcher, he's got to pitch. I don't think it's reasonable to build back up a pitcher in their prime 25 innings at a time like you would with a young arm. A pitcher in their prime should be pushed out to 110ish pitches every single outing if they are effective... otherwise the team is giving too many innings to the weakest part of the pitching staff, which is the BP.

[Ennder]

I'm using PAP because it is better than anything out there, it isn't innings that matter it is pitches thrown and pitches per specific inning etc. Sheets also averaged 6.7 IP per start before the last 2 starts and 6.95 IP per start in his first 16 starts before he started to wear down, so stop saying 6 1/3.

 

From March 31st through July 9th Sheets pitched 18 games and averaged 105 pitches per game(including a 60 pitch game he left early with a blister so for the rest he averaged 108) . In Sept he threw games with 120 and 113 pitches back to back even though Yost said his elbow had been bothering him all month. Does it make any sense to do that?

 

To go year by year the last 3 years Sheets has thrown 2298, 1569, 2249 pitches. Is there really a big surprise that as he approached 3000 pitches his arm started to get sore? He was on pace to throw almost as many pitches this year as the last 2 years combined. Yost should have been babying him some and he didn't.

 

Yes Gallardo should not go 200 IP next year if they can avoid it. Next year they need to have a quick chain with Gallardo to try to keep his innings down whenever they can. When the team is winning 4-1 and Gallardo has gone 7 innings and 98 pitches he should be pinch hit for as an example. Situations like that with Sheets this year is where Yost kept him out there not just 1 more inning but 2 more.