Would Gabe Gross have helped?

[DougJones43]

An injury to Ryan Braun. An injury to Gabe Kapler. A terrible slump for Corey Hart. These are all things that happened to the Brewer outfield, and have in different ways contributed to the team's slide. Back when Gross was traded in April, many fans felt like it might be a mistake. Gross was one of the best on the team at taking a walk, he was a left-handed bat, and giving him up really stripped away the depth the team had in the outfield. Now, Gross is helping Tampa, while the Brewers have spent the past month-plus being pretty handcuffed as to what to do with the outfield each day. But hey, at least we kept Tony Gwynn Junior!!!

 

Some Gabe Gross stats to ponder:

 [u]AVG[/u] [u]OBP[/u] [u]SLG[/u] [u]OPS[/u] Since Trade .252 .340 .455 .795 Since Aug 9 (Braun Inj.) .287 .374 .487 .861 September .288 .364 .475 .839 

[kramnoj]

How much action would Gross have seen if he stayed, until the last month? He was a 5th OF, and the Brewers wanted pitching depth rather than have a decent player sit on the bench, or take away ABs from better players just to keep a bench guy active. It is certainly reasonable to say that the Brewers should have cut Gagne, but we know that wasn't an option. There was strong sentiment to cut Mota, but Mota has actually performed well over the season. Some wanted McClung to be cut, but he has provided good value to the team.

 

Is there a point to the Gwynn comment? It's not like the players kept Gwynn over Gross.

[trwi7]

Is there a point to the Gwynn comment? It's not like the players kept Gwynn over Gross.

Management did. They could've optioned Gwynn and kept Gross. That made more sense than trading Gross for nothing, keeping Gwynn on the roster and then optioning Gwynn later anyways.

[kramnoj]

Is there a point to the Gwynn comment? It's not like the players kept Gwynn over Gross.

Management did. They could've optioned Gwynn and kept Gross. That made more sense than trading Gross for nothing, keeping Gwynn on the roster and then optioning Gwynn later anyways.

 

One of the points of this is Gross theoretical value to the team in Aug-Sep. Gwynn being on the team and then being optioned has nothing to do with whether Gross would have been on this team later this year. Gross was not traded for nothing. It doesn't help to make a point when you aren't being truthful. Gross was traded for nothing that would help the team this year, but he wasn't expected to provide much value to this team anyway, seeing limited action while taking up a roster spot for a player that would be needed later in the year.

[trwi7]

Gross was not traded for nothing. It doesn't help to make a point when you aren't being truthful.

Oh please. Obviously he wasn't traded for "nothing" but the player he was traded for sucks. That's pretty close to nothing.

[JJHardy7]

They should've kept Gross. I wasn't overly upset at the time because we were getting a top prospect...who pitched poorly once for the Brewers so far. I've met Gabe a few times and he's a good guy and he is what he is. He gets on base and has a little pop. I don't think I would've made the trade at the time, but I figured the prospect would pay off down the road. Now I have a feeling we may have gave Gabe up for a guy that will never make it to the bigs.

[kramnoj]

Getting a player who may provide value is better than cutting Gross. Gross was out of options, right? The Brewers were going to have to make a roster move to activate Cameron and keep all the players they wanted to have for 2008. The Brewers would have been better off by cutting Gagne. Other than that, I'm not sure there was a way to keep Gross on the team for the entire year to be available if two of their best OF were injured at the same time.

[trwi7]

Getting a player who may provide value is better than cutting Gross. Gross was out of options, right? The Brewers were going to have to make a roster move to activate Cameron and keep all the players they wanted to have for 2008. The Brewers would have been better off by cutting Gagne. Other than that, I'm not sure there was a way to keep Gross on the team for the entire year to be available if two of their best OF were injured at the same time.

Well they could've done this.

Keep Gross and Gwynn until Cameron came back.

 

Cameron comes back, Gwynn gets sent down. Turnbow gets DFA'd, Brewers call up Stetter, Dillard, DiFelice, whoever.

 

Go with this team.

 

Sheets

Gallardo

Parra

Suppan

Bush

 

Villanueva

Riske

Mota

Torres

Shouse

McClung

Whoever they called up for Turnbow

Kendall

Fielder

Weeks

Hardy

Hall

Braun

Cameron

Hart

 

Rivera

Gross

Kapler

Counsell

Dillon

Then you can send Dillon down for the platoon of Branyan/Hall like we did anyways. That seems like a better plan to keep your best players on the field and not selling them for spare parts because there's a percieved "roster crunch."

 

 

[kramnoj]

How many ABs does Gross get in that scenario? What kind of value is he providing being the 5th OF? How many ABs does he take away from Cameron, Braun and Hart when they were a better player so he could stay fresh? The Brewers at one point had so much trouble with their pitching that they only had a 3 man bench.

[JJHardy7]

How many ABs does Gross get in that scenario? What kind of value is he providing being the 5th OF? How many ABs does he take away from Cameron, Braun and Hart when they were a better player so he could stay fresh? The Brewers at one point had so much trouble with their pitching that they only had a 3 man bench.

 

He'd provide value in case there were injuries and giving guys days off with a LH bat...something this team has lacked since he was gone. Would Gross give the Brewers 10 more wins? Of course not. He may have helped in a few though...more so than the pitcher they got for him. Gross was hated by quite a few here, which is fine. I just think Gross should've stayed or we should have found another LH option. Again, I'm not saying Gross is great or anything. We just needed some more lefties this year and batters that took pitches. Gross is both.

[trwi7]

What kind of value is he providing being the 5th OF?

A ton. Assuming Branyan is starting for Hall like I explained in my scenario then Gross becomes the #1 pinch hit option off the bench ahead of Counsell. He could also give Cameron and Hart days off against tough righties. I believe Cameron has missed a few games with nagging injuries this year, he provides value there etc.

[lukevan]

Yes. I was totally against trading Gross when we did. I thought a LH bat would be important to have in our back pocket. Gabe Gross could be starting in place of Hart right now.

[kramnoj]

What kind of value is he providing being the 5th OF?

A ton. Assuming Branyan is starting for Hall like I explained in my scenario then Gross becomes the #1 pinch hit option off the bench ahead of Counsell. He could also give Cameron and Hart days off against tough righties. I believe Cameron has missed a few games with nagging injuries this year, he provides value there etc.

A ton needs to be quantified to provide any kind of meaning. According to Chris Dial's Offense plus Defense Rating, Gross this year has provided a value of 4.5 runs above average for a RF, so less than half a win. That is through Sep 3rd, the last time the spreadsheet was updated. That is with him getting 286 ABs and starting 87 games (well, not quite, as the rating only goes to the beginning of the month, but hopefully the point is clear). I don't think he comes close to that amount of playing time in a Brewer uniform.

[DougJones43]

How many ABs does Gross get in that scenario? What kind of value is he providing being the 5th OF?

Having depth is always valuable. Assuming everybody is going to stay healthy is foolish. Gabe can play all three outfield positions. Over the course of a year, it is almost a guarantee that at least one of your outfielders will get hurt and/or need time off. And, as has been pointed out, Gabe could have been the #1 lefty option off the bench, and could have started against some tough RHP.

 

I guess we won't know the overall value of this trade until we find out what happens with the career of the minor leaguer involved -- Suffice to say, it's unlikely that a low-level prospect will ever turn out to be an impact player. The move certainly hasn't helped the Brewers this year though.

[clancyphile]

Yes. I was totally against trading Gross when we did. I thought a LH bat would be important to have in our back pocket. Gabe Gross could be starting in place of Hart right now.

He also would have been an option in left, with Braun to third, given Hall's slump. He'd have been perfect as the #2 hitter as well.

[lukevan]

He also would have been an option in left, with Braun to third, given Hall's slump. He'd have been perfect as the #2 hitter as well.

 

IMO I don't think Braun plays another out at 3B no matter how bad Bill Hall is.

 

But Gross definitely could've spelled in LF and given Braun more time to recuperate. Though that wouldn't guarantee Braun would have come back 100% healthy for the stretch, it's certainly conceivable that there could've been a value of one win in that decision, which obviously could be the difference between playoffs and golf.

[Ennder]

Yes we would have been better with him on the team. I was completely confused by the trade since we really needed a LH pinch hitter. To be honest though if Branyan doesn't get hurt I think Gross gets very little playtime during the season. That injury probably cost us at least 1 win if not 2.

[lukevan]

To be honest though if Branyan doesn't get hurt I think Gross gets very little playtime during the season. That injury probably cost us at least 1 win if not 2.

 

Possibly true, and maybe Gross takes away some ABs from Kapler who was very successful. However, I think Gross starting for Hart against 1/3 of RHP these last two months would've helped a lot, especially if Gross bats 2nd instead of Counsell.

 

I think Melvin read the comments on Haudricourt's blog too often. They all wanted Gross gone no matter what it took.

[clancyphile]

He also would have been an option in left, with Braun to third, given Hall's slump. He'd have been perfect as the #2 hitter as well.

 

IMO I don't think Braun plays another out at 3B no matter how bad Bill Hall is.

 

But Gross definitely could've spelled in LF and given Braun more time to recuperate. Though that wouldn't guarantee Braun would have come back 100% healthy for the stretch, it's certainly conceivable that there could've been a value of one win in that decision, which obviously could be the difference between playoffs and golf.

Which would you rather have had offensively these last two months, an outfield of Gross-Cameron-Hart, with Braun at third; or an outfield of Braun-Cameron-Hart, with Hall seeing significant playing time, even in a platoon?

 

It's a no-brainer for me, I'd take my chances with Braun at third.

[naivin]

I think the Branyan and Kapler injuries may be the most underappreciated aspects of this season. The didn't seem all that serious given the roles of the players, but seeing what has transpired since makes them very big. Who would've thought that during Spring training?

 

As far as Gross...nah. It took two outfielders getting hurt before he wver would have been considered. Braun clearly is able to play, even though he isn't hitting very well, and Gross never would have played for him, so really we are talking about potentially taking a bit of time away from Corey Hart. It might be nice to have him, but what has been missing the past few weeks is Kapler, not Gross. Beyond that, the Brewers decided to send him somewhwre so he could have a chance to play. It was the right thing to do as that was not going to happen here. Prior to Kapler getting hurt, and the few games Braun sat out, he NEVER would have played.

[MNBrew]

Which would you rather have had offensively these last two months, an outfield of Gross-Cameron-Hart, with Braun at third; or an outfield of Braun-Cameron-Hart, with Hall seeing significant playing time, even in a platoon?

 

It's a no-brainer for me, I'd take my chances with Braun at third.

Good logic, but it was obvious all along that Braun was the Brewers' best option in LF and that's how they chose to play their hand. Given that they had tons of chances to use him at 3B but never did, it's also obvious they never have any intention to return Braun to 3B, which is a decision I agree with fully (and not that my opinion counts for anything).

[lukevan]

Which would you rather have had offensively these last two months, an outfield of Gross-Cameron-Hart, with Braun at third; or an outfield of Braun-Cameron-Hart, with Hall seeing significant playing time, even in a platoon?

 

It's a no-brainer for me, I'd take my chances with Braun at third.

 

Offensively, sure. The problem is that you have to think about defense. At least Hall and Counsell have been pretty good defensively since Branyan went down. Braun was "historically bad" at 3B last season. Even with Hall hitting worse than almost every other major leaguer, I still go with the move of Braun to LF. I just don't think management would want to have Braun try to re-learn the position in the middle of the season when he wasn't good at it in the first place.

[Fatter than Joey]

To be honest though if Branyan doesn't get hurt I think Gross gets very little playtime during the season. That injury probably cost us at least 1 win if not 2.

 

Agreed. Branyan was not getting enough playing time before he got hurt, so I am not sure where Gross's ABs would have come from. Still if Branyan would have gotten those starts instead of Counsell, Gross could have been a great PH option against RHP.

[joepepsi]

How many ABs does Gross get in that scenario?

Not many with Ned Yost as manager.

[Postseason2006]

The Brewers should've traded their best hitter Rivera also.