Hardy & Hart / long term

[Oldcity]

I don't think anything should be done for next year. Escobar does not need to be rushed, especially since he projects as a below average offensive shortstop. Give him a full year in AAA and keep your solid MLB shortstop another year.

[rluzinski]

Hammer, I wasn't even responding to you. Lbcj said something about the finances being irrelevant to him. The finances are everything. A GM that consistently overspends for players is going to consistently have less overall talent, not more.

 

And walks are not everated by those that know an average walk is worth about 2/3rds of a single. And a walk on the Brewers offense is probably worth a hair more than a walk on an average offense, with all it's power.

 

Finally, if you take 2 guys who are equal in every way except that one is good enough defensively to play SS, how is he going to make less money? I don't think your list is comparing apples to apples.

[Ennder]

Weeks is already as good a hitter as Phillips and he isn't much worse of a fielder, so not sure how he can turn into what he already is.

 

Escobar hasn't shown me anything with his bat yet so I think we stick with Hardy for at least another full season. His K and BB rate suggest he isn't a true .300 hitter, he doesn't have much power (though he isn't Gwynn or something either). He needs to get those BBs up for me to be excited about him starting every day.

[joepepsi]

Weeks is already as good a hitter as Phillips and he isn't much worse of a fielder, so not sure how he can turn into what he already is.

 

Escobar hasn't shown me anything with his bat yet so I think we stick with Hardy for at least another full season.

No, no, no, you're not on board with "the plan". Weeks must be traded, so he can be punished. Same with Prince. And they HAVE to trade Hardy now, when he's really, really good because his value will never be higher! The ss job must be given to an unproven 21 year old who's never played a season above AA. And Hart should be moved to 1B and Braun to right field and Gamel to left. But Hall should still play at 3rd in 2009! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[PilprinBuddha]

I am not in favor of trading Hardy or Fielder. I'd like to see us move Hardy to 3b, put Escobar at ss, trade weeks for a Left handed batting 2nd baseman who can lead off, move Hart to CF and Gamel to RF.

 

If I had to trade Hardy, Hart, or Fielder - I'd deal Hart simply because Gamel could play there now.

 

Roberts would be my choice at 2nd if we could acquire him via trade from Balt.

 

At least we would have 3 LH bats in our regular lineup.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Weeks is already as good a hitter as Phillips and he isn't much worse of a fielder, so not sure how he can turn into what he already is.

I was speaking in terms of that he could be a late bloomer. Weeks of course hasn't reached his full potential yet.

[paul253]

Im in the "move Hardy to 3rd base" camp. He has the offensive ability to handle it, for one. Also, the defense on the left side would go from average to good with him at 3rd and Escobar at short. I don't really care whether Hardy wants to move, because if he refuses he'd lose a lot support from a city that just saw their playoff dreams choked down the drain. I also don't see why he'd lose value moving to third. Assuming he eventually goes to free agency, he could now advertise himself to teams that need a thirdbasemen OR a shortstop. And I don't see that there are all that many more elite thirdbasemen than there are elite shortstops where all of a sudden he's a below average overall player at his position

 

That being said, I would be really weary of just handing shortstop to Escobar next season. I'd like to see him handle AAA pitching first. If we are going to give anything to a AA player next year, i think it should be Brantley in centerfield.

[rluzinski]

This is all about the defensive spectrum. Most SS can also handle 3B. Most 3B could not play SS at an acceptable level. Since there is a greater pool of potential 3B to choose from, the average 3B is better offensively than the average SS. Hardy as a 3B/2B has less value to an average team than as a SS. As a corner OF, even less. 1B? Forget about it.

 

Hardy may agree to be moved but I don't think so. It's not in his best interests. Last time I looked, his offensive numbers were great for a SS but nothing special for a 3B. I think the Brewers would have to give him quite the payday for Hardy to happily accept it, IMO. I'd just keep him for another and see how Escobar develops offensively.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I remember reading at least in a few places that JJ wasn't really all that excited about moving to third base.

 

And Russ is right on. All things being equal (concerning length of service) an .850 OPS shortstop will make more money than an .850 OPS 3rd baseman.

[TheCrew07]

A team like Milwaukee would trade a position player because they get more value signing FA bats than they do pitching. FA pitching is a weak market as typically most FA pitchers are declining, some teams can afford to overpay for the stability a FA pitcher offers, I personally do not believe it's in the Brewer's best interest to do so.

[TwinsBrewersWorldSeries]

This reeks of the "trade your HOF QB to make room for a three year rookie" to me. If Escobar is supposed to be BETTER than Hardy, he is controlled cheaply for SIX more years instead of two, and should have more value to another team. If Escobar is not supposed to be better than Hardy, then why even discuss this?

 

How about Fielder and Escobar to Toronto for Rolen/Halliday. Move Gamel to 1B, resign Cam.

 

2B Durham, SS Hardy, LF Braun, 1B Gamel, 3B Rolen, CF Camerson, RF Hart, C Kendall - Kapler, Rivera, Weeks, Hall, Utlity OF

 

Halliday, Yo, Parra, Soup, Bush

 

Focus on the bullpen with FA or minor trades.

[rluzinski]

If Escobar is not supposed to be better than Hardy, then why even discuss this?

 

Because there are many other things you consider, which is what we are doing and you are not.

[TwinsBrewersWorldSeries]

I recognize that Escobar is CHEAPER than Hardy. Presumably, the only reason Hardy might not be here long term is money. For years the Brewers have shipped out costly players for unproven players. We have the financial resources to retain Hardy, and if Ecobar has similar trade value one would use basic logic that Hardy + traded player > Escobar + traded player.

 

If Escobar was likely to put up a .280/.350/.470 25 HR line, i'd be fine with him, but everything he has shown me thus far leads me to believe he is a .250/.300/.350 hitter. Replacing our best hitter (this season) with another Billy Hall simply isn't a good idea

[JJHardy7]

I've seen Escobar quite a few times and he's a good player. I just think taking the AA jump to the bigs will have some bumps along the way. Escobar is a good prospect, but he hasn't done anything yet IMO to talk about trading Hardy at this point and time. Hardy is much more proven than Escobar is. I'd rather have Escobar at AAA and JJ in Milwaukee next year and then see where we are in a year. Escobar is going to be good in the field, but I still have questions about his bat. I think he'll 'grow' into his frame and the power will come, but I'd had to see him try and do that in the bigs. There are two major questions in relation to Hardy being traded.

 

Are the Brewers rebuilding? Trading Hardy right now and starting Escobar may indicate that. Of course it depends on what we get back.

 

What does Hardy want in terms of money? There's a lot of speculation here, but we really don't know.

[GAME05]

we don't really know that we have the financial resources to keep Hardy. who knows if we trade for or sign a high-dollar player in the offseason.

 

i don't really think it's a bad idea to trade JJ at all. he's probably at peak value right now. yeah, Escobar likely won't come out of the gates and hit as well as JJ, but we'll probably have to do a lot of trading to fill some holes in the offseason, and at least JJ is somewhat replaceable. we won't lose a beat defensively at SS, but we certainly can't say that about moving Gamel to LF if Hart is gone.

 

i'm pretty much in the Beane mold that you trade a player when a solid minor-leager is ready to come up, and we have that situation here. if Escobar isn't temporarily played at 2B, then it seems clear to me that trading Hardy would be a good move.

[xisxisxis]

The brewers should keep Hardy at SS in 2009 and let Escobar get most of a year at AAA. Then move Hardy to CF in 2010. In fact, we have Robin in the dugout for the next week at least to talk about what a good move it was for him to move to CF. Cameron is the one year fill-in at CF and Hardy's bat is above average for CF. He should make similar money in CF as he does at SS. Sign him long term if he is willing and he makes a transition to CF, otherwise trade him when Escobar is ready.

 

Hart? This year has been the same trend as last year without the September Surge. He started 2007 and 2008 slow, peaked in late June/Early July, dropped til September then made a late surge. The main difference being his OPS peaked over .900 in 2007 and peaked in the .850s in 2008 with a September slump. Obviously from his comments he can't handle the pressure of a tough media market like Milwaukee where the fans can't remember what you did in your last at bat and would be better suited to playing for the Florida Marlins where nobody shows up to boo the players. Go year to year with him unless he trades some FA years for a good team deal. He doesn't have quite the power, nor quite the speed to be great at a corner OF spot.

 

Weeks? He's always 50AB from breaking out ....., now if only the same could be said about his atrocious defense. I've been waiting for the breakout year for Rickie simply so that he has maximal value to trade him. Keep him as long as he's cheap.

 

Fielder? He has all the potential of being a standout DH. Trade him after his next monster year or the next offer that's too good to pass. Go year to year with him for contracts as he's waiting for the big payday anyways.

 

Hall? Move him to catcher.

[tigerbrew]

Yeah, I want Hardy & Hart signed long term asap, and I hope Hardy is willing to play 3rd and 2nd along with SS.

I think the trio of Hart, Hardy and Braun long term would be great for the Brewers.

 

[rluzinski]

I recognize that Escobar is CHEAPER than Hardy. Presumably, the only reason Hardy might not be here long term is money.

 

Also, he has 2 more years until he's a free agent, so the Brewers might get a pretty good return for him in a trade this off season. Not saying he SHOULD be traded but these are the things you need to consider.

[LouisEly]

A team like Milwaukee would trade a position player because they get more value signing FA bats than they do pitching.

 

Now that is an argument I will give credit to as far as trading Hardy. Not only that, but it appears that it is a lot safer to draft a position player in the first round than a pitcher (the stockpile bats and trade for pitching philosophy). A pitcher like Cain (assuming that is realistically who the Giants would trade for Hardy) would cost a lot more in free agency than to trade for. Should neither Sheets nor Sabathia be back next year that might not be a bad move to make. I would agree though that it would be better to trade Hardy after 2009 and give Escobar another year to develop in the minors next year.

 

But also, as someone else said, Hardy has the intangibles (character, leadership) to be a great clubhouse presence so in order to trade him I would need to get a lot in return.

 

As much as I like Hart, I think he is still peeved about how long it took the Brewers to hand him a starting job (not saying it's right or wrong, just saying I think he might still be holding something against the organization). If he doesn't want to be here, then I think Cole Gillespie will make an adequate replacement in 2010.

[Never Outhustled]

The Brewers can get just as high an OPS from a platoon at 3B as they can Hardy at 3B, and get it for less money. I would stand pat next year on the middle infield. They just need to find the right platoon options for 3B. The team needs to find someone who needs a SS/2B that could use Hall. I think there be a few options. Hall's contract is just going to be too much for a platoon 3B, but still tollerable for a SS/2B.

 

Trading Hart makes more sense than signing him longterm. He doesn't seem to be the most focused player, and longterm security won't give him the motivation to maximize his potential. Braun would be just as good defensively in RF, and I'd think we could find a LF who could replace Hart's OPS, even on a good year. Mat Gamel could likely do that, and that would give us a 2nd lefthanded bat.

[Oldcity]

The brewers should keep Hardy at SS in 2009 and let Escobar get most of a year at AAA. Then move Hardy to CF in 2010.

Hardy in center? He's one of the slowest players on the team. I don't see how he could ever play center.

[logan82]

League average 2008

SS .270/.325/.388/.714

2B .274/.338/.407/.745

3B .266/.337/.438/.775

 

Hardy 2008 .287/.347/.487/.834

Hardy career .271/.330/.448/.778

 

Moving Hardy to 3B makes him average. The 2008 SS stats are dragged down by the AL shortstops.

[endaround]

I hate having to keep brining it up, but I guarantee you Hardy;s agent is well aware that Jeter's deal expires in 2 years. Meaning that it would take a huge chunk of money at this point to sign Hardy past his arby years. Something like 6yrs./$60 would be in line.