Longing for LaPorta

[DonMoney4Mgr]

LaPorta for CC straight up I could stomach. CC's been nothing short of spectacular, and should of made us a lock for the playoffs, which is still a possibility. However, throw in Brantley as part of the deal and we don't make the playoffs, then it becomes a major setback for this organization. No way will they find players of that caliber with the supplemental picks. And Brantley could of been a prototypical leadoff man, something this team hasn't had in a while.

[trwi7]

No way will they find players of that caliber with the supplemental picks.

Yeah, there's no way we could fine a player of Brantley's caliber in the 1st or 2nd round when Brantley was taken in the 7th round.

[endaround]

If by typical leadoff hitter, you mean a slap hitter that doesn't really get on base, how soon we forget Alex Sanchez. Brantley has a ISO of .080 in AA. He's another Gwynn at this point. He still has time to develop power of course, but until he does he's a 5th OFer.

[Greg Vaughn]

That trade has still been worth it. CC has done everything we asked of him and then some. If we didn't have CC right now we would probably be atleast 2-3 games back of the wildcard. CC can't make our hitters take a few pitches every once in a while.

 

That's exactly why we shouldn't have traded for him. This team is showing it's true colors right now.... I always have and always will hate this trade and it has nothing to do with C.C. It has all to do with the rest of the team.

[endaround]

How? The team got CC to move them from 88 wins to 90 wins. And how is Septemeber the true colors and not August?

[Tbadder]

Yeah, look--this isn't some little boys game. You've either got a pair or you don't (and Melvin's obviously got 'em). This is a small market team and arguably the worst in major league baseball history. If you've got a chance to make the playoffs you've got to go for it. Period. If you don't make it, so be it, you suffer the consequences. You know the consequences, you take responsiblity for them, but you don't roll over and play dead. The Linebrink and the CC deals were exactly what was called for. Like 'em or don't like 'em who cares--you gotta make the effort. The whining and snivelling in hindsight? Well, that's always easy to do.

[Postseason2006]

If we don't make the playoffs. IMO #1 reason Doug Melvin should not be back this year.

[Big Cat Dad]

Tbadder[/b]]Yeah, look--this isn't some little boys game. You've either got a pair or you don't (and Melvin's obviously got 'em). This is a small market team and arguably the worst in major league baseball history. If you've got a chance to make the playoffs you've got to go for it. Period. If you don't make it, so be it, you suffer the consequences. You know the consequences, you take responsiblity for them, but you don't roll over and play dead. The Linebrink and the CC deals were exactly what was called for. Like 'em or don't like 'em who cares--you gotta make the effort. The whining and snivelling in hindsight? Well, that's always easy to do.

It's not hindsight from me....I didn't like the trade then...don't like it now.....never will. I said at the time of the deal "taking nothing away from C.C. we have WAY to many holes on this team". I stated we need bullpen help, true lead-off hitter, better defensive players.....we are not just one player away. Just "Going to the playoffs" is not good enough for me. I could care less if we get to the playoffs and get swept or lose in the 1st round. We are not a World Series team this year. If they turn it around and get there....I will gladly come back and eat crow.

 

World Series or bust. If we don't make the World Series this year....it was a bad trade. You proved exactly why it was a bad trade when talking about small market teams. If we want to build a perennial contender then we CAN'T make these kinds of trades.

 

Looks like my foresight is better than your hindsight.

[Tbadder]

I apologize if you thought I was addressing your comments--I didn't even look at your post.

[brewmann04]

i really can't see how anyone can argue this Trade w/o CC this team is not even in the WC hunt.

[Postseason2006]

i really can't see how anyone can argue this Trade w/o CC this team is not even in the WC hunt.

So if we don't make the playoffs, how should the trade be evaluated? IMO it matters because when you add players given up a top notch #1 prospect playoffs is the goal and Melvin should be evaluated on that alone.

 

The fact of the matters is he did little improve an awful bullpen this year wasting money on total disasters. While Jason Kendall may be a good defensive C, his lack of bat subtracts offense from the team.

[Ennder]

What did he do to improve the bullpen.

 

Traded for Torres - Good move

Traded for Mota - ok move as a backend bullpen guy, certainly more valuable than estrada

Signed Riske - Good move, just Riske got hurt. You can't blame injuries on the GM

Signed Gagne - Bad move

 

I fail to see how he didn't address the bullpen myself. For all the complaints about the bullpen they have been average or better on the year.

[endaround]

So how exactly did this team improve then with every single position player save Hardy falling off from last year? Melvin brought in Cameron, he got Parra, he got CC.

[bucks2281]

Looks like my foresight is better than your hindsight.

 

This team would not be in their current position without CC Sabathia. The team has won 12/13 of his starts ... how many starts would they have won with McClung or Greg Maddux? He took stress off of our atrocious bullpen and his contributions with the bat are relevant, too. During this current stretch, the team has gone 1-11 in the non-Sabathia starts. We don't sniff the playoffs without Sabathia. Once you're into the playoffs, it's a matter of a few coinflips. He and Sheets have the potential to be the top 1-2 punch in the NL playoffs. A World Series berth is still a possibility. It's not over yet. IF we get there, CC Sabathia is the guy that will have put us over the top. The Brewers have flaws, but it makes more sense to make a trade for an outstanding player who very well may give us a World Series, rather than blowing the whole thing up because we have so many flaws.

 

LaPorta is still a prospect. The Sabathia trade is one of the best things the Brewers have ever done.

[DonMoney4Mgr]

Ennder wrote:

 

I fail to see how he didn't address the bullpen myself. For all the complaints about the bullpen they have been average or better on the year.

Only four teams in the majors have more blown saves than the Brewers. Bullpen's WHIP is about 18th last time I checked. Those numbers are not average or better.

[Big Cat Dad]

bucks2281 wrote:

This team would not be in their current position without CC Sabathia.

I could care less about this teams current position....I just care about where this team ends up. This was a very flawed team before the trade and that hasn't changed since.

[MJLiverock]

LaPorta is still a minor leaguer who may or may not contribute or bust out. He may very well be another 3TO guy playing less than average defense in the outfield. Brantley (if he is the PTBNL) is a 1B, no LF, no CF? who has zero power, good OBP in low minors who also may or may not amount to much at the ML level.

 

Sabathia has been stellar as a Brewer and energized the fan base and gave us hope of a playoff run. When he walks after the year is up the team will get 2 picks who may or may not be as good as LaPorta and Brantley, neither of whome were considered can't miss superstars when drafted in the middle of the first round and 7th round respectively.

 

I have no problem with the risk the Brewers took in trading for Sabathia and going for it this year. I don't want to keep saying wait till next year or 5 years from now.

[TheCrew07]

i really can't see how anyone can argue this Trade w/o CC this team is not even in the WC hunt.

It's not arguing against CC, I think sometimes people get caught up in how good CC has been and the wildcard chase... it's arguing against the notion that this team was one player away... it's arguing against dumping prospects for short term solutions (rentals) when there's no garuntee, not that there ever is but I'd rather mitigate my risk over several years than take a one and done. The simple truth is that while the system produced bats, it produced mostly the same type of bats, and very little pitching. Again I never thought 2008 was the year, I've always had my eye on 2010 for various reasons.

 

I've posted on this subject so many times going back to last summer that it's hardly revisionist history, I just don't like rental player deals. I'm all about trading assets for starting pitching, I just want a young pitcher on the rise, like a Volquez, or a legit #2 who's the 3rd best pitcher on their staff like an Ervin Santana or James Shields. Usually those deals happen in the off season, which again tempers my enthusiasm for rental player deals, I want a limited amount security when I'm trading top prospects, and I'd rather not have to worry about filling the same hole again next year. This team may miss the playoffs with CC and next year he'll be gone, I would have rather tried to aquire a Marcum (if an season deal "had" to be made) who would have contributed this year and not left a gaping hole in the rotation next year. I'm not someone that gets caught up in these "name" conversations... Halladay, Sabathia, etc... I'm a value guy, and I don't think the Brewers got the best possible value when they aquired Sabathia, and how well Sabathia has pitched since the trade isn't a factor. When all is said and done we traded 2 top prospects for 15 starts, when for the same package we could have potentially picked up 90 starts. Would the difference between Marcum and Sabathia matter this season? It's too early to tell, but if the Brewers do in fact miss the playoffs even with CC I think scale starts to lean a little bit more towards my point of view.

 

I honestly believe that many fans are just happy the Brewers "went for it" which is fine, I just never felt that way. Also, LaPorta was not drafted in the middle of the first round, he was number 7 overall and while the comp picks may very well turn out better than the players that were traded, they might also be the next David Krynzel. I have a very hard time accepting the logic that because the pick is higher in the draft it will turn out better, that's a statement of opinion that gets tossed around like it's a fact... who would have thought Hart, a tenth round pick would turn out how he has...you just never really know with draft picks. I prefer a known quantity to the promise of an unknown quantity.

 

I agree with Big Cat Dad, the point I kept trying to make over and over in the transaction forum was that this team was a good 2 or 3 players away, not 1 pitcher away. Like I said, I've come to accept the CC deal because he was such a boost, but that being said, it doesn't mean that the trade was in the best longterm interests of the franchise.

[trwi7]

If by typical leadoff hitter, you mean a slap hitter that doesn't really get on base, how soon we forget Alex Sanchez. Brantley has a ISO of .080 in AA. He's another Gwynn at this point. He still has time to develop power of course, but until he does he's a 5th OFer.

 

 

Doesn't really get on base? His minor league OBP is .399. He may not have a lot of power but he's also very young for his league. Always has been. Brantley's career SLG% is .372, Gwynn has been above that number once in his career when he repeated AAA. Gwynn's career SLG% is .342.

Brantley also has 55 more walks than strikeouts in his career. Gwynn never drew as many walks as Brantley does and Gwynn also strikes out much more.

I'm not saying Brantley is this great hitter and that he does hit for power but saying he's Gwynn is pretty ridiculous.

[bucks2281]

This was a very flawed team before the trade and that hasn't changed since.

 

Agreed. This team is very flawed. I just believe it's better to make a move to improve your odds of making the postseason (and, thus, the World Series) rather than blowing the whole thing up. The move wasn't in the best long-term interest, but the franchise couldn't afford to take steps back.

[endaround]

If by typical leadoff hitter, you mean a slap hitter that doesn't really get on base, how soon we forget Alex Sanchez. Brantley has a ISO of .080 in AA. He's another Gwynn at this point. He still has time to develop power of course, but until he does he's a 5th OFer.

 

 

Doesn't really get on base? His minor league OBP is .399. He may not have a lot of power but he's also very young for his league. Always has been. Brantley's career SLG% is .372, Gwynn has been above that number once in his career when he repeated AAA. Gwynn's career SLG% is .342.

Brantley also has 55 more walks than strikeouts in his career. Gwynn never drew as many walks as Brantley does and Gwynn also strikes out much more.

I'm not saying Brantley is this great hitter and that he does hit for power but saying he's Gwynn is pretty ridiculous.

 

The point is aside from pre- injury Luis Castillo, players who have no power don't keep up such high OBPs. The only reason his slugging is higher than Gwynn's is because he hits for a higher average. Obviously given the age he's doing all this at is very encouraging. but he's not ready at this point. He is nowhere close to replacing Cameron next year which is my main point.

[trwi7]

He is nowhere close to replacing Cameron next year which is my main point.

Nobody ever said he was going to replace Cameron. He just said that he didn't want to have Brantley in the trade because he's a prototypical leadoff hitter. He made no mention of when he would actually be with the Brewers.

[DonMoney4Mgr]

I don't even want Cam back at 9M. We have too many hitters with the same flaws. Take away his hot August and the remainder of the year he's hitting .210. I would rather have someone who has a chance at hitting .300/.380 OB. Maybe Brantley has a chance to do that. He was voted to have the best idea of the strikezone with a 2 to 1 BB to SO ratio. Hopefully I'm not veering too far off topic.

[MJLiverock]

Why would the Blue Jays or Rays want to trade young pitchers who are cheap and good for minor league prospects? Would you advocate trading Gallardo for AA position players?

[clancyphile]

Chances are LaPorta would not have played in 2009 much anyway. Ned doesn't vary his lineups much. La Porta's only opportunity would come at the expense of Hart or Fielder and I don't either of them sitting out much '09.

Actually, if LaPorta were still around, my choice would be Braun back to third, Hall to the bench or dealt.

 

I'm amazed nobody is kicking around going back to Braun-Hardy-Weeks from third to second.