Home Field Disadvantage

[logan82]

trwi7 wrote:

If he's going to play like he has this year do we really want him here long term?

Good question, but that is sort of off topic to discuss in this thread.

[bucks2281]

Anyone who boos for the team they "support" for anything other than lack of effort is an idiot.

 

I'm no booer ... but isn't that kind of extreme? If Bill Hall were to K 10 AB in a row, or if Gagne were to give up three consecutive homers, are all of the booers a bunch of drunken idiots? I know there are a ton of those, and a ton of uneducated baseball fans who don't understand that the game is based on failure, but somebody booing one time to express frustration doesn't necessarily make he/she an idiot.

[Electric Elf]

I've been a Brewers fan for a long time, but I don't live in the area--the last time I actually attended a game in Milwaukee was at County Stadium. I was at Miller Park last weekend, and the environment there was discouraging enough for a fan. Most people really don't seem to be there for the game, it's all about the social scene, and they're expecting perfect baseball 100% of the time. I can't imagine what it would be like being one of the players.

 

I'm seeing so much fannish entitlement going on in Brewers fandom these days that it makes me sick, and the booing is a lot of that.

[Brian the Automator]

I'm no booer ... but isn't that kind of extreme? If Bill Hall were to K 10 AB in a row, or if Gagne were to give up three consecutive homers, are all of the booers a bunch of drunken idiots? I know there are a ton of those, and a ton of uneducated baseball fans who don't understand that the game is based on failure, but somebody booing one time to express frustration doesn't necessarily make he/she an idiot.

If Bill Hall were to K 10x in a row or Gagne would give up 3 bombs in a row, would it be because of a lack of production or a lack of effort? I don't have a problem with fans booing their own players for a lack of effort (I wouldn't boo them, but there's no excuse for a lack of effort). If Gagne leaves 3 pitches up in a row, I don't think it's because he's lazy or doesn't care. If Hall K's 10x in a row (which I don't think has come close to happening), is it because he's just swinging for the fences or isn't seeing the ball well?

 

I wouldn't go far as to call booers "idiots", but I think it should only be reserved for serious lack of effort (or Gary Sheffield).

[owbc]

Here's a question for discussion:

 

What if CC Sabathia commented about the booing instead of Corey Hart?

[SeriesFinale]

Fans are booing way beyond the call of duty. It's almost as if they don't realize that a batter "failing" over 66% of the time and a pitcher "failing" nearly 34% of the time is par for the course--and that some of those "failures" being lumped together is part of the program.

Some brainiac in the comments' section of TH's blog (and don't ask me why I subjected myself to it) was asked how he'd like it if his boss was standing over him at work and vociferously booing every time he made an error or failed to make a sale, etc.

 

The guy's response? "If I failed in my job 75% of the time, I'd be fired from my job!!!" http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/ohwell.gif

 

Yeah, the initial analogy was a bit strained in and of itself, but holy smokes...the mindset of an adamant boo-er.

[Robideaux]

Booing the home team is counterproductive and reflects negatively on the fan base and the city in general. I've always considered Milwaukee a baseball town. Even during the lean years when you could have whole sections to yourself if you so desired, I felt like the fans who came were knowledgeable and (relatively) well-mannered. But right now for the first time in my life I'm embarrassed to be a Brewer fan.

 

People are mad at Corey because what he said was honest? I guess the players are supposed to have thicker skin than the fans.

 

Sure you have a right to boo...blah...blah...blah. You also have a right to scratch yourself in public, burp loudly upon meeting your future in-laws for the first time, yell at small children if they walk onto your lawn to retrieve an errant ball, and point and laugh at people with physical or mental disabilities. So what. The legal right to behave in a childish and boorish manner doesn't make it any less dumb.

 

Or, trying a different tact, ask yourself this question: Why am I booing? For those of you who are spending your time on a Brewers-themed message board, my guess is that you are booing because you have all those years and years of frustration pent up (like we all do) and you are deathly afraid of this team ultimately disappointing you like all the others that came before (I know I am). But what if your actions are actually contributing to the thing that you ultimately want to avoid?--another collapse. Why continue booing if the players indicate that it is affecting them negatively, whether you think it should or not?

 

 

 

 

WARNING! Long vaguely-related non-baseball tangent: read at your own risk.

 

My mom taught me how to drive. Unfortunately (for me) I was the oldest and the first to get behind the wheel and my mom was deathly afraid that I would get into an accident. When we went driving together while I had my learner's permit she would absolutely freak out every time every time I had to brake, merge, pull out into traffic, etc. She would yell things like 'look out' and 'watch out' and repeatedly slam her foot into an imaginary brake pedal located on the floor of the passenger side of the car. Pretty soon I was an emotional wreck behind the wheel--jumpy and overly cautious and I would flinch every time her foot hit that non-existent brake pedal. Finally (in probably not the nicest way) I told my mom that her constant criticism and overall freaking-out behavior was not helping me get to the point where I would pass my driving test. Her response: if I can't deal with her, how will I handle all the other distractions I will encounter as a driver. Or, to borrow from the vernacular of this thread, that I needed to sac up and drive. So what happened? My laid back dad took over driving instructor duties and within a week I was a much more relaxed confident driver (and ultimately passed my driver's test).

 

My mom wasn't wrong in saying that I should have been able to tune her out, but the fact of the matter was that I couldn't and it was affecting me negatively.

 

Rant over.

[Fatter than Joey]

Some brainiac in the comments' section of TH's blog (and don't ask me why I subjected myself to it) was asked how he'd like it if his boss was standing over him at work and vociferously booing every time he made an error or failed to make a sale, etc.

 

This analogy is a bit flawed, but it made me think. Corey Hart is a lot like a person working in customer service -- let's say he is a cashier at Arby's. He gets flack from two sources, a customer who is mad (booing), because Arby's no longer offers 3 beef and cheddars for 5$ -- and/or a shift supervisor (Yost/the boss) who is upset that Hart is not selling enough turnovers with the customer's meals (lack of production).

 

Here is something that is missed. The fans are not Hart's boss, Yost is. Here is a quote from that Rosenthal article in another thread:

 

"There's a sense of panic, anxiety," one scout said. "The team picks up on it. He's a Nervous Nellie. A manager is supposed to calm you down, not rile you up."

 

People are mad at Corey because what he said was honest? I guess the players are supposed to have thicker skin than the fans.

 

I am not mad at Hart at all. I am concerned that he is playing so tight. It doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy about putting together a streak a wins to end out the season though.

 

I think his comments are misdirected -- I tend to believe that the "tightness" the players are experiencing, is coming from Yost primarily, and not the fans. The booing is stupid, and it doesn't help -- but it is ridiculous to blame the fans when Yost is the main culprit. I am getting tired of the Brewers and Yost cracking on the fans. I think it is easier for Hart to blame fans than it is to blame Yost.

[DougJones43]

I tend to believe that the "tightness" the players are experiencing, is coming from Yost primarily, and not the fans. The booing is stupid, and it doesn't help -- but it is ridiculous to blame the fans when Yost is the main culprit. I am getting tired of the Brewers and Yost cracking on the fans. I think it is easier for Hart to blame fans than it is to blame Yost.

Something else to consider is that it sure seems like a large portion of the booing is directed at, or caused by, Yost and his decision making. When Bill Hall is left in to face a RHP late in a game, and strikes out with guys on base, part of those boos have to be on Yost. It's doubtful that Durham, Counsell or somebody would be booed if they pinch hit and failed to deliver. Would Gagne have been booed as much if he wasn't constantly brought into high-leverage situations? Possibly not. What about when Ned fails to defensively replace Weeks late in a close game, and Weeks makes an error? Those boos are on Yost as much as anyone, in my book.

 

He's alway putting players in a position to fail, and often times people are booing that as much as the failure itself.

[Hank Aarons Shoes]

Agree with Doug Jones 100%. I am a season ticket holder and see most games. When the booing grows, it usually because the fans are frustrated by Ned's lack of action and stubbornness. That sure is the case in the areas where I sit, and I move around a lot. It comes out as against the individual player, but most of the time I dont think it is. I think the dislike for Ned runs deep and leads to fan frustration. Over-consumption of alcohol is a huge factor. Way to many "out of it" drunks out there after all the tailgating etc.

[JJHardy7]

By Hart's own admission, they are playing tight at home... It's September, we are in the pennant race, fan's emotions and expectations are going to be through the roof. Part of the reason Hart is going to be a very rich man, is that he will be able to hit MLB pitching with 40,000 people watching and millions watching at home. If the Brewers are tightening up now... just wait until the freakin' Cubs come to town... it's sort of scary.

 

Again, FTJ a great post. This is the major leagues and I don't agree with the booing, but to make excuses for major leaguers losing is not going to sit well with me. Win some games when it counts and this thread would have never started. I hope the Brewers do well and booing before a 'performance' is sad. I just think even mentioning it is quite dumb. What is Hart really going to accomplish? So some Brewers have their feelings hurt by bandwagon fans...so what . What's the big deal? Why is this thread on page 7? If booing is why the Brewers have stunk for a bit, this team does not deserve the right to play in the playoffs. I understand it doesn't help players. Booing isn't going to make Gagne good, but why the hell did they sign him. What happened to Bill Hall? Should we all write letters to the Brewers?

 

I would like to point out again that booing a player isn't saying that guy is garbage. The booing is the past performance. It's not we hate Eric and his family. I've pointed out in this thread that most of the young guys haven't been a team that is booed in the minors so this is new. 26 years is a long time and it's too bad it's been taken out on the team. As far as free agents go, I hope we boo more. This will avoid the Gagne signing. Booing has little to do with the team's performance. It's not right. It is very important to remember it's not personal and at times it's bandwagon fans. Booing is a right no doubt, but booing before a player enters is stupid. Brewers' fans are nervous and from the looks and quotes of it the Brewers' players are equally as nervous. The Brewers will not make the playoffs because they are not mentally strong. I hope I'm wrong, but this team can't flat out deal with this 'pressure', which includes little media coverage. This team flat out does not deserve the playoffs. Houston seems to care and play well when it counts. Imagine that.

[Cracked Bat Collector]

The booing gets extremely old. Anyone who boos has no class. If you don't do a good job while you work do you like getting criticized? Didn't think so. Sure you can be frustrated but booing does absolutely nothing positive.

[Patrick425]

Wow, I can't believe how loose the Brewers are playing, now that they are on the road.

[jeffy]

Wow, I can't believe how loose the Brewers are playing, now that they are on the road.

 

Yes, and it all starts with the manager and coaches (Skaalen) staying relaxed and not panicking. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/eyes.gif

[Invader3K]

Wow, I can't believe how loose the Brewers are playing, now that they are on the road.

 

Yes, and it all starts with the manager and coaches (Skaalen) staying relaxed and not panicking. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/eyes.gif

Yeah...if only Yost and Skaalen had been more loose and un-panicky, Parra might not have given up 5 runs in 1 and 1/3 innings!

[JJHardy7]

Maybe Braun's more thick-skinned than Hart. Dunno. Yeah, maybe they should "sack up", but simply stating that's the case doesn't make it so. Again, to them, perception is reality.

 

The main point is that there is no good outcome that comes of booing, while we know that there is a negative outcome of booing, apparently... right or wrong. So why do it?

 

It's simply a way for fans to 'voice' their opinion. Why cheer for good plays? Because it's entertainment and if you pay to get in you have a right to cheer, boo, or be mute. I really think if the Brewers made the playoffs every 5 years or so the booing wouldn't be an issue. I know Milwaukee boos former players, but IIRC (I might be way off here) didn't the Milwaukee fans give Jenkins a decent ovation? Again, I might not be accurate on that, but if that's the case I think that defines the typical Brewer fan. Fans want hustle, effort, and feel like the contract a player has is within reason of his performance. It's probably not real fair, but IMO that's how it is. We've been told through the media and sites like this how good the Brewers are and how good the bats are...well they've been struggling at almost the worst time to do so in the season. You'll have fans there who only hear how good the team is and attend 2 or 3 games a year and boo. It's garbage, but for players to bring it up is the problem. Someone posted that maybe Hart didn't go to the media and TH came to him...isn't that the same thing more or less? The booing sucks, but to continue to bring it up shows a lack of mental toughness in my opinion.

 

It's been 26 years since the playoffs. There are plenty of Brewers fans that have never seen this team in the playoffs during their life. Fans are all on the edge and from what it seems some players are too. Let's win some games because chances are this opportunity may not happen again for awhile.

[Fatter than Joey]

It's been 26 years since the playoffs.

 

As a side note -- I saw a graphic today -- The professional sports team with the longest playoff drought (other than the Brewers) was the AZ Cardinals at 9 years -- The Brewers are at 26 years, I suppose that puts some depth to the fan's sense of urgency, esp. if they think w/o CC and Sheets we are in trouble for next year.

[Fear The Chorizo]

It's official, the Brewers can't even win on the road now because they have nightmares of being booed at Miller Park.

 

A few posts earlier in this thread hit the nail on the head - the increased sense of the "all in" - win now mentality combined with 26 years without seeing the postseason have created an overly crazed fanbase who have set attendance records and are thirsty for a winner. Brewer management and PR have maximized that feeling and have created almost unrealistic expectations for the team to achieve. When those expectations aren't being met, and the appearance of another collapse is at hand, fans aren't exactly going to be pleased about it - especially for the 2nd September in a row.

 

Booing may not ever have a positive impact for the home team, but 8 pages of this thread trying to quantify just how negatively it impacts players is pointless too - if the Brewers are so affected by hometown boobirds, they aren't as good a team as many of us had hoped.

 

Maybe Ned shouldn't be the enabler that he is and the players could start holding themselves more accountable for their onfield performance. Better yet, make sure the Brewer clubhouse has plenty of earplugs for the players to use - my guess is if they continue to slide right out of contention, they're going to need them during the final homestand.

[Fatter than Joey]

Better yet, make sure the Brewer clubhouse has plenty of earplugs for the players to use - my guess is if they continue to slide right out of contention, they're going to need them during the final homestand.

 

Yeah, the final 3 against the Cubs could be horrible.

[xisxisxis]

As a side note -- I saw a graphic today -- The professional sports team with the longest playoff drought (other than the Brewers) was the AZ Cardinals at 9 years -- The Brewers are at 26 years, I suppose that puts some depth to the fan's sense of urgency, esp. if they think w/o CC and Sheets we are in trouble for next year.

 

Not sure where you saw that, but the Pirates haven't been in the playoffs since 1992 and the Royals some time in the mid 80's so I doubt the accuracy of that.

 

 

Maybe Ned shouldn't be the enabler that he is and the players could start holding themselves more accountable for their onfield performance.

 

Exactly. Ned publicly states he's happy as long as the team battles. Privately, who knows, but there doesn't seem to be any thoughts about accountability by the players that when they play like crap the paying customers can voice their unhappiness. I guess in this whole debate I see a culture clash between those who are fans of the team and those who go to games to be entertained. Many call the latter, bandwagon fans, but that mis-characterizes them. A significant number of the 3M that will attend Brewer games chose attending a Brewers game as a form of entertainment and aren't as emotionally invested in the psyche of the players as the typical poster here. The entertainment 'fan' (EF) simply wants to be entertained and when the actors are laying a pile on the field and wanting the fans to excuse their defication, suprise, suprise, the EF lets them know they don't appreciate paying for that *crap*. Get used to it, because when you put out a product that's entertainment and the actors are paid as if they are entertainers, their performance is going to be judged by everyone atttending the event. Fans can chose to moan and gripe about it, but with success comes minority status and the only way to have success is to pay for it. I don't think there's enough fans to keep MP filled and the payroll high enough to keep the team competitive and the EF in the minority.

[trwi7]

The Lions were booed today. They came back to take a 25-24 lead in the 4th. Yeah, they ended up blowing it, but they didn't fold like a tent after they got booed.

[jeffy]

If this is correct the expos/nationals have gone one year longer than the Brewers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_franchise_post-season_droughtshttp://en.wikipedia.org/w...hise_post-season_droughts

[jeffy]

Yeah, the final 3 against the Cubs could be horrible.

 

Or maybe not, if this keeps up the Brewers will be done before then and they will be meaningless games attended by 45,000 celebrating Cub fans. The Brewers will sweep since there will be no pressure and no booing.

[Fatter than Joey]

Not sure where you saw that, but the Pirates haven't been in the playoffs since 1992 and the Royals some time in the mid 80's so I doubt the accuracy of that.

 

You're right -- Maybe I am forgetting the context in which the graphic was presented, or any qualifiers. In either case, it's been awhile.

[brains and braun]

Maybe Corey should come out in the Philly media and blame the Brewers' losses on the lack of support from the Philly faithful. Really, he can hit really well as long as his grandma cheers him on.