09/2008 Designated Yost Thread (Merged: Yost late in games; FOX article; New Yost thread)

[Rob]

Quoted from a BP article about a week ago

 

"The Brewers have guys who walk far too many batters and don't strike out nearly enough of them. Any game in which Ned Yost has to go to the mound carries with it the potential for disaster. Yost takes criticism for his handling of the pen, and not undeservedly, but you can't run from the fact that the pen, assembled from spare parts by Doug Melvin-a decision I did not criticize-isn't championship-caliber, or anything close."

 

Again, who are you bringing in to from bullpen. I believe that Yost was going with Shouse as his guy, no righty or lefty matchups, just who he could rely on.

[sheethead]

Goodbye Ned Yost. You will no doubt go down in history as the manager who ruined the CC trade. Not only does he seem to be a painful guy to be around, he is a painful guy to have around. Good luck with this one Atl, your gonna need it.

[jeffy]

Again, who are you bringing in to from bullpen. I believe that Yost was going with Shouse as his guy, no righty or lefty matchups, just who he could rely on.

 

Again, reasonable choices were Shouse vs. Howard or a right-hander vs. Burrell. He has no basis for "relying" on Shouse against right handers. It is just moronic to have Shouse walk a left hander to have him pitch to a right handed batter. They have 11 guys in the bullpen, several of them are right handers, pick one from among: McClung, Dillard, DiFelice, Coffey, Gagne , Riske, Torres, Villaneuva. If Yost did not like any of those options, then Shouse should have pitched to Howard.

[bucks2281]

When Yost returns to Miller Park as manager of the Braves, he's going to hear Sheffield-esque boos. Nobody will be complaining about that.

[tigerbrew]

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll129/tigerbrew/NedYostSuck.jpg

 

[Fear The Chorizo]

I think when Yost returns to Miller Park as manager of the Brewers, he's going to hear Sheffield-esque boos, and nobody will be complaining about that, either.

 

While it's true that players on the field ultimately determine how good a team is, it's a manager's job to understand the game enough to put players on his roster in the best possible scenarios that promote success. It's also his job to have a better feel for the mentality of his team than anyone else, and know how to handle players individually to get the most out of them. IMO, Ned Yost fails miserably at both of these traits, which are essential for a manager on a contending team. National sportswriters even see that Yost is a buffoon.

 

I would love to be a fly on the Brewers' flight home right now to see just how loose, relaxed, and even-keeled the team actually is right now. I would also love for Nedly to see a voicemail/text message pop up from Mark A. after the plane lands asking for a meeting tomorrow morning to discuss "things".

 

For as optimistic I was about this team around the 25th of July, I'm now probably more pessimistic about their chances to make the postseason.

[brewmann04]

Yost only should only return to Milwaukee to clean out his locker

[Never Outhustled]

Ned has failed to ever help this team out of a late season tailspin, and he won't this time either. Fire him today, and give this team a chance to recover.

[windiv07]

When Yost returns to Miller Park as manager of the Braves...

May it be so by Spring. Oh PLEASE may it be so.

[jhart05]

So this is ALL Yost's fault? What would you have him do when his 3-4-5-6 hitters all disappear for three weeks?

 

The best manager in the world isn't going win when that happens.

 

How would you fix that?

 

"It's the manager's job to help then thru that." How exactly?

 

What can you do when your three best hitters, and your veteran CF, all go into the tank at the same time? Tell them to stop sucking?

 

 

Yost is probably gone after the year, fine I don't really care. His players, who say they like playing for him, are throwing him under the bus right now.

[Fatter than Joey]

I have to agree that Yost keeps his job if we make 90+ wins. You can't control how well other teams do and 90+ wins will get you into the playoffs more often than not.

 

I am going to pick on you Logan http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

I am not a big fan of drawing some arbitrary win total in the sand, and awarding the manager the job if they hit X+1 wins, or firing them if they hit X-1 wins. Logan is absolutely right that 90 usually gets you into the playoffs (especially in the recent years of the National League), but sometimes 100 wins doesn't win you your division. I find a win total to be arbitrary

 

I think a GM going into a season, has some sort of number in his head of how many games his team that he assembled should win, i.e. -- this is an 80 win team, or this is a 90 win team. Then you evaluate the manager based on how well the team maximized their win opportunities -- so if a GM assembles an "80 win team" that wins 90 games, the manager did a good job.

 

Anyone that knows me would certainly agree that I am more Nostradumbass than Nostradamus, but it became apparent to me that Yost was an incompetent boob early in 2006. I thought DM should have fired Yost after 2006, but I was mostly OK with DM letting Yost get one more year. After DM extended Yost after 2007, that was the last straw for me with DM. I don't think that Yost has or will maximize the "win potential" of any team he is put in charge of. I think if the Brewers win 90 games this year, ANY other manager, tictactoe chicken, lucky rock, would have gotten 95-97 wins out of the same talent.

[windiv07]

Well said FTJ. Yours is an entirely reasonable appraisal of the talent scale of the current 2008 Brewers roster. As I have said many times (like you when experience has borne this out) in years prior, never underestimate the Yost factor...particularly late in the year. And I'll say it again.

[bklynbrewcrew]

The sad thing is the Brewers wasted two potential playoff seasons because of one dope in the dugout. Melvin now has to pay the price along with clueless Ned for this debacle. Time to clean house and let Jack Z take over this rudderless ship.

[phxMILWfan]

I've complained about Ned before but never thought that he NEEDED to go. Well now he NEEDS to go.

[giffted1]

So this is ALL Yost's fault? What would you have him do when his 3-4-5-6 hitters all disappear for three weeks?

 

The best manager in the world isn't going win when that happens.

 

How would you fix that?

 

"It's the manager's job to help then thru that." How exactly?

 

What can you do when your three best hitters, and your veteran CF, all go into the tank at the same time? Tell them to stop sucking?

 

 

Yost is probably gone after the year, fine I don't really care. His players, who say they like playing for him, are throwing him under the bus right now.

Pretty much right on here.

 

I'm sure sure why Yost needs to be blamed for half his team slumping so far this month. I doubt there's any coach out there who can prevent slumps. Right now he's doing the only thing he can do to help them get out of their funk: letting them play. Yost gets quite a bit of criticism and some of it is warranted (pitch hitting Gwynn, Shouse pitching to righties, etc.), but I don't see how he gets blamed for this dismal September. If anything, Yost should get some credit for not having any public outbursts yet. He must know his job is on the line. He could have easily thrown Soup under the bus after last nights game, or criticized Braun, Fielder, Hart, Cam, ect. for their poor play this month.

 

I'm sure that if we miss the playoffs this year, Yost becomes the scapegoat. Its really no big deal, though. I new manager isn't going to make much if any difference. He won't drag the team down, but he won't magically make a streaky team consistant either.

[endaround]

Ryan Braun doesn't think to himself " Boy wouldn't it be great if I went into a deep offensive slump for teh next two weeks! That'll help the team!"

 

Yost does think "Hey, Shouse can easily get out one of the premier right handed hitters in the game with men on base!"

 

If you don't see the difference in personal culpability I'm sorry.

[TooLiveBrew]

Then you're bringing Gagne? Right?

 

Well... unfortunately, Ned likely would -- don't let his inability to accurately utilize splits hamper yours! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif Personally I'd pick DiFelice or Dillard -- actually Torres, given the leverage of that situation... but there's probably no MLB manager going for that. That would have been a situation where you'd have seen Fingers or Plesac in their time. Imo the loss of the Relief Ace has been the strangest and most hand-tying 'evolutions' for managers in some time (if not all-time).

[1992casey]

If you don't see the difference in personal culpability I'm sorry.

 

This crosses the condescension line. "There's a difference in personal culpability here" would have worked fine.

[endaround]

Really didn't mean it personally

[logan82]

Fatter than Joey wrote:

I think if the Brewers win 90 games this year, ANY other manager, tictactoe chicken, lucky rock, would have gotten 95-97 wins out of the same talent.

I have to say that I think 95-97 wins with this team no matter the manager is an unreasonably high expectation. Yost has made mistakes, but most of the problems are the direct result of all but one or 2 players going into a huge hitting slump this month. I am not necessarily saying that we should go off some arbitrary number, but I doubt anybody would have though we would win 90+ games after, or even before, the Gallardo injury. I do count the CC trade as making up for the Gallardo injury. To think that there is a difference between Yost and even the best manager we can get is 5-7 games seems to overstate the impact of a manager in my opinion.

 

Fire Yost or keep him. It will matter very little. The next guy is likley to do many of the same stupid things Yost does.

[RU Rah Rah]

Merits aside (and I think there is considerable merit in the idea of canning him), there will a PR issue in play here with Ned. I am not sure Mark A. and Doug would want to alienate their fan base by keeping someone who is so liked so little by the general public. And after a collapse, you need a little catharsis -- which often involves firing the skipper, whether justifiably or not. That's just the way the business works. In this particular case, I think it wouldn't simply be for show, given how lost Ned apparently is.

[jhart05]

Yost does think "Hey, Shouse can easily get out one of the premier right handed hitters in the game with men on base!"

 

 

 

Well, the other guys out in the pen haven't been able to get it done either, so pick your poison.

 

What does it really matter anyway? When your offense can only get you 3 runs max (and that's on a "good" day) you're not going to win too many games. So I don't blame the pitching entirely. When they know the offense is struggling like they are, and probably aren't going to score many runs, they feel they have to make a perfect pitch every pitch. You get tight, and you make more mistakes.

 

When you have Braun, Fielder, Hart, and Cameron on your team, but Hardy is leading the team in HRs and RBI during any month, that is not good. Hardy is a fine hitter, but on this team, he should be middle of the pack in those categories, not first.

 

IMO, blame for this collapse, falls firmly on those 3-4-5-6 hitters.

 

About the only way they can win right now is with a Sabathia complete game-shutout.

 

 

EDIT (to no one in particular): Here's another September stat I am fully enjoying watching: Sabathia/Parra: 8 AB, 4 RBI. Braun/Hart: 103 ABs, 4 RBI. Great!!! And people can't blame Weeks (.303/.439/.455) for not getting on base this time.

[TooLiveBrew]

I doubt anybody would have though we would win 90+ games after, or even before, the Gallardo injury.

 

I definitely felt this was a 90-ish win team. Yes, my expected range included being down a bit below 90, but also over 90 by a few/couple games. I'm not patting myself on the back, just saying that's honestly how I felt heading into the '08 season -- 90 wins at the time seemed very do-able to me.

 

 

To think that there is a difference between Yost and even the best manager we can get is 5-7 games seems to overstate the impact of a manager in my opinion.

 

Agreed, however, I think 2008 has been proof positive that you simply cannot overstate the importance of a position with the impact of plus or minus appx. 3 games. In a tight race such as this year's, an overall net impact from the manager position (which I feel is what Yost has been... how many 'games', I'm not sure) is very dangerous.

 

 

Fire Yost or keep him. It will matter very little. The next guy is likley to do many of the same stupid things Yost does.

 

I think that, at this point, if this logic is true... might as well try someone else. I, however, am of the opinion that the Brewers can improve at manager. While it may be a marginal boost, going from an overall negative impact to neutral or positive would be a nice way to improve the team for 2009 & beyond.

[DuWayne Steurer]

When they know the offense is struggling like they are, and probably aren't going to score many runs, they feel they have to make a perfect pitch every pitch. You get tight, and you make more mistakes

 

One could argue the hitters are pressing because they know the bullpen is likely to give up any lead of less than 5 runs on a given night. One could argue the starting pitchers are pressing for the same reason.

 

At the end of the day, everyone can only do their own job.

[jhart05]

One could argue the hitters are pressing because they know the bullpen is likely to give up any lead of less than 5 runs on a given night. One could argue the starting pitchers are pressing for the same reason.

 

At the end of the day, everyone can only do their own job.

 

 

 

Well, with all due respect, I believe it was the offense (Braun, Fielder, and Hart) who went MIA in the last couple of weeks of August, before the pen started stinking it up.