Who gets the Credit/Blame...and not a vent thread

[orca1963]

Just listening to Rock talk about the Brewer's less than stellar play lately. He commented that (and I am paraphrasing here) that the coaches have done all they can do and that it is up to the players to get it done. I respectfully disagree--and I mean that as he knows far more about baseball than I ever will. The Brewers are a team. From the front office to the manager to the players on the field. Yes the players have a responsibility to produce. But the coaches have a responsibility to to coach and lead. In a single game or even a couple game slump this is not an issue bit this is an extended down time at a very crucial time. The Brewers have been winning all year especially at home. For whatever reason (pressure?) that is not happening now. It falls on all of them to find the answers together.

 

As I said I don't want this to end up in the vent thread if possible. I think Yost has been making good decisions on the field. I know the players are trying to win. This is where champions are made though, in diversity. What I am looking for is ideas on what all involved could do to right the ship. Team meetings? Benching? Hugs? Drills? Heck I don't know. I just know that they all get the credit if they win and they all must share in the blame when they lose.

 

I too have a responsibility...to cheer my team to glory or to the bitter end.

[trwi7]

No particular order.

 

The offense (they just completely suck right now)

 

The bullpen (blowing a ton of leads lately)

 

The defense (five unearned runs on Sunday)

 

Ned Yost (back to back days he let's Counsell and Kendall bat with numerous options on the bench when we're down by one, continuing to use Gagne in the 8th, etc.)

[DougJones43]

Doug Melvin, without question.

 

He has shown far too much patience with Yost. He assembled a very one-dimensional team of players who play bad defense, and hit only for power with low BA and OBP. He also spent gobs of money on what has turned out to be a pretty bad bullpen.

[naivin]

I have to say, I don't understand what your point is at all. You say...

Yes the players have a responsibility to produce. But the coaches have a responsibility to to coach and lead.

Why would you assume this is not happening? Bill is absolutely correct, the players do have to get it done on the field, and you are right that the coaches have to continue to work hard with them as well.

The entirelty of your post seems to be premised on the assumption that the manager and coaching staff are not doing what they need to do, as if they are looking at the players and throwing their hands up and saying, "Its up to you guys."

The players are collectively just not hitting. Is it because of pressure? Maybe. Are they pressing? Seems liek it. Could it just be a bad couple of weeks? Maybe. Its tough to say what the issue(s) may be, but there is nothing to indicate that the players, coaching staff, GM, etc. are not all doing everything they can to turn it around.

[Ennder]

The team will win more games than it did last year, there isn't much to blame anything on. We lost a bunch of close games in a row and played poorly for 10 days, happens to almost every single team in baseball at least twice a year.

[owbc]

Who's to blame for the Brewers having 83 wins on September 10th and having a solid lead in the Wildcard:

 

70% the players themselves and their inherent personalities/playing approaches which rarely experience change despite endless coaching and fan bickering

15% Melvin/scouts/assistants for bringing in Sabathia, who gives us a nearly automatic win every start, along with assembling the team in the first place

10% Yost for motivational tactics, lineup decision, and bullpen management, although we've either all been really hot or really cold, so I don't think his lineup/bullpen decisions have mattered much (the best example is that Mota went from the worst to one of the best relievers in the pen--he would have been dumped 3 months ago if the opinion of Brewer nation was used)

5% Brewers fans for support (attendance) and lack of support (booing)

 

The Diamondbacks, Rays, Twins, and Cardinals have all experienced significant falls in the past few weeks.

[giffted1]

What I am looking for is ideas on what all involved could do to right the ship.

One word, all the answers: Nothing. Time has righted the ship in the past and will continue to do so.

 

We've gone through this multiple times this season. We have a period where we lose a bunch of games (Boston series and Cubs series come to mind). At least half of the BF.net nation lines up on the bridge. The rest try to tell them it will get better, and every time it has.

[DougJones43]

The rest try to tell them it will get better, and every time it has.

Yep. Just like last year when people were constantly reminded that the Brewers were still in first and everything would be fine. And it was!! Oh wait...

 

Not every time.

[giffted1]

Yep. Just like last year when people were constantly reminded that the Brewers were still in first and everything would be fine. And it was!! Oh wait...

 

Not every time.

Who said anything about last year?

[DougJones43]

Yep. Just like last year when people were constantly reminded that the Brewers were still in first and everything would be fine. And it was!! Oh wait...

 

Not every time.

Who said anything about last year?

Last year seems pretty relevant to me when discussing how/why people react the way they do to Brewer skids. Don't you think it's a contributing factor? If the team had shown signs of falling apart last year, but toughened up and held on, do you really think people would be as fearful and reactionary this year? I don't. This is the same team with the same manager and many of the same players.

 

How can you make the claim that "time has righted the ship in the past and will continue to do so," without considering what happened last year? You're acting like the people who remain calm are always right, but in reality the people who were (rightfully) concerned about the collapse last year are mostly the same people this year.

 

edit: Even though the Brewers bounced back and beat some bad teams after the sweeps against Boston and the Cubs, many people felt and/or still feel that the performance by the Brewers in those series left some major concerns that aren't going to be erased by beating the Pirates. You can't claim with such certainty that those people were completely wrong, because many of those same flaws are showing up again during this dreadful September.

[Brian the Automator]

Doug Melvin, without question.

I disagree... Despite the fact that Yost reports to Melvin, that's definitely a Mark A call.

[lcbj68c]

Are we talking credit or blame for the year, or just September so far?

 

September

Credit- Yost, Sabathia, Sheets, Torres

Blame- strike zone, Gagne, Riske, Maddux & Castro

 

Season

Credit- Yost and Company minus the blame below

Blame- Weeks, Hall, Gagne, Riske, Mota

 

Minus Weeks, the rest are rostered decisions of D. Melvin. But you win some, you lose some there.

 

It seems this post was a rant and therefore, I find it difficult to really put much thought into this. I refuse to subscribe to the theory that the sky is falling, the world is crumbling and therefore blame/credit seems a bit excessive. This is a team, win or lose, every man is accountable. If this team wins a World Series, they wont hand out rings based upon credit and blame.

 

I have to agree with gifted1. I dont want to mini-analyze this 3-7 slump. The only reason that it matters to some is because it's September. If the team had gone 134-0, then proceeded to finish the season 134-28, then who cares? Let's look at the season as a whole rather than dissecting 10 game stretches. This team is tight because it's September, not because of August and September of 2007.

[giffted1]

Last year seems pretty relevant to me when discussing how/why people react the way they do to Brewer skids. Don't you think it's a contributing factor? If the team had shown signs of falling apart last year, but toughened up and held on, do you really think people would be as fearful and reactionary this year? I don't. This is the same team with the same manager and many of the same players.

 

How can you make the claim that "time has righted the ship in the past and will continue to do so," without considering what happened last year? You're acting like the people who remain calm are always right, but in reality the people who were (rightfully) concerned about the collapse last year are mostly the same people this year.

Last year was a completely different situation. This team this is not really even close to being the same as last year (new bullpen, another ace, etc.). The people concerned about the collapse last year had good reason to be concerned. Our team was not as good as our hot start. Starters not going deep in games + a suspect bullpen + our ace and innings eater going down was the perfect storm last year. It's not that the people who are always calm that are always right, but that the people who are realistic tend to be right.

 

edit: Even though the Brewers bounced back and beat some bad teams after the sweeps against Boston and the Cubs, many people felt and/or still feel that the performance by the Brewers in those series left some major concerns that aren't going to be erased by beating the Pirates. You can't claim with such certainty that those people were completely wrong, because many of those same flaws are showing up again during this dreadful September.

I'll claim that they were being very shortsighted. And having a rough patch in September shouldn't come as a surprise. No way were we going to keep on playing as well as we did in August.

[rluzinski]

I'm supposed to find someone to blame for the Brewers most likely winning 90+ games this year? Where to start...

 

If this thread is specifically about the recent 3-7 stretch, there's nothing fundamentally different about the team that hard a hard time losing less than a month ago. How about blame the same things that let the Brewers tear off a bunch of wins in August? Sometimes, players overperfom and/or balls just bounce the right way for a team. Sometimes, the opposite is true. Baseball fans just have this terrible habit of always having to find something to explain a losing streak, when more often than not, it's just random variance.

 

And if I'm supposed to find blame for why this team is probably going to win 90+ games this year, I'm sorry but get some perspective. How many wins SHOULD this team have?

 

"and hit only for power with low BA and OBP."

 

I swear that some of you guys don't realize that the offense isn't below average. There are only 4 NL teams (Cubs, Mets, Philli and Cards) averaging more runs/game than the Brewers. You might not like watching the offense but they are finding ways to score runs. That's a lot more important to me than looking pretty.

[DougJones43]

I swear that some of you guys don't realize that the offense isn't below average. There are only 4 NL teams (Cubs, Mets, Philli and Cards) averaging more runs/game than the Brewers. You might not like watching the offense but they are finding ways to score runs. That's a lot more important to me than looking pretty.

That's true. However, I see some differences from earlier in the year that worry me some. For one thing, I don't think Braun is completely healthy. He hasn't looked quite right since his injury. Second is Fielder. He's been pretty bad since late July. If at least one of those guys doesn't get very hot with the HR ball, I worry because the Brewers are third last in the NL for batting average with RISP. They are just not very good at driving in runs if the middle of the order isn't hitting homers. Also, it might seem small, but Branyan added something big to the offense that is now no longer there. The black hole at 3B is a current problem that isn't reflected by looking at the season stats.

 

I'm probably overreacting. I just don't have much confidence in the offense right now to get back on track.

[lcbj68c]

I'm supposed to find someone to blame for the Brewers most likely winning 90+ games this year? Where to start...

Baseball fans just have this terrible habit of always having to find something to explain a losing streak, when more often than not, it's just random variance.

If you never say another right thing vs all of my opinions, you've hit this one right on the nose.

[orca1963]

The entirelty of your post seems to be premised on the assumption that the manager and coaching staff are not doing what they need to do, as if they are looking at the players and throwing their hands up and saying, "Its up to you guys."

The players are collectively just not hitting. Is it because of pressure? Maybe. Are they pressing? Seems liek it. Could it just be a bad couple of weeks? Maybe. Its tough to say what the issue(s) may be, but there is nothing to indicate that the players, coaching staff, GM, etc. are not all doing everything they can to turn it around.

This is what I was trying not to convey. My major point was that winning is not happening now. I do believe all are doing all they believe they can be doing and that they all share in the blame or the credit when things go well. I was also trying--as I would in their situation, and am sure they too are--to seek ideas for answers. Doing all you can do collectively is all well and good but when it is not working you have to keep seeking answers. Maybe the answer is to ride it out. After today's result I certainly hope that is all it was. I repeat: I was not pointing the finger at any part of the team individually, that is the part of what Rock said that I disagreed with. I pretty much avoid the vent thread as I like to stay positive, my apologies for not being clearer. (Here's hoping I haven't muddied the waters further). http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[dlk9s]

For one thing, I don't think Braun is completely healthy. He hasn't looked quite right since his injury.

Since August 16, which was when Braun came back from his injury (he did have another short stint when he sat out during this stretch):

 

.291/.364/..519/.883

 

For the season (neither set of numbers includes September 10):

 

.298/.343/.576/.919

 

So, he's lost some power, but we don't know if that has anything to do with the injury. He has also increased his OBP. Overall, the numbers seem to indicate that he's been playing fine.

[owbc]

Another idea for credit/blame is to use VORP.

Offense:

Credit:
Braun 45.3 VORP
Hardy 38.1
Fielder 25.9
Cameron 25.6
Hart 20.2
Kapler 13.9
Branyan 10.9
---
Rivera 5.0 (higher than Kendall)
Sabathia 3.7 (higher than Kendall)

Blame:
Bill Hall -6.1
Gwynn -2.7
Nix -2.2
Couunsell -1.7
Dillon -.8
Kendall 2.9

Pitching:

Credit:
Sheets 55.6
Sabathia 42.3
Bush 22.2
Parra 20.2
Torres 19.9
Shouse 15.4

Blame:
Turnbow -6.9 (in such a short time)
Tavarez -5.3 (in such a short time, continued)
Dillard -4.5
Gagne -3.5 (ouch)

[Ennder]

VORP ignores defense so it is pretty dubious for position players. VORP per pitchers is based solely off of Rs so it is borderline useless.

[owbc]

True, adding defense would definitely help Bill Hall and hurt Fielder.

 

I didn't realize picthing VORP was that simplified, thanks.

[logan82]

True, adding defense would definitely help Bill Hall and hurt Fielder.

I am not so sure about that.

[Ennder]

True, adding defense would definitely help Bill Hall and hurt Fielder.

 

I didn't realize picthing VORP was that simplified, thanks.

I'd say it hurts Hall and Fielder and Weeks and well most of the Brewers, heh.

 

I'd assume it helps Hardy, Cameron, Hart, Kendall though.

[owbc]

obsessedwithbrewcrew wrote:

---

True, adding defense would definitely help Bill Hall and hurt Fielder.

I am not so sure about that.

My unconditional love for Bill Hall always manages to show up...