The Infield -- 2009 & Beyond

[TooLiveBrew]

I took teatoe's words in the OF thread literally, since I agreed with his sentiments:

"Someone should start an infield thread if there isn't one already. Ideas would really fly there."

So let's get talking. I'll start with the SS question...


I understand Escobar's awesome defense, and this comment has nothing to do with Alcides... at this point, J.J. imho is the player that should have to get displaced, not Escobar. I understand the contractural implications and all, but if Alcides's bat really is MLB-ready for 2009, then 2B is the spot where he should be playing. I know that overall, SS is the more valuable defensive spot. But moving Hardy to 2B really makes the range of the right side of the IF a big concern when paired with Fielder. A SS Hardy & 2B Escobar combo would be such an upgrade over what we have now defensively that it really wouldn't even be funny.

I think in general people know how I feel about Rickie Weeks. But if the decision starts to become 'Hardy or Escobar at SS?', then I think I'd rather have it posed as 'Keep Rickie or JJ?' Hardy's approach at the plate in general is second imo only to Fielder. J.J. has really surprised a lot of people, I think, this season. Most/many around BF.net felt his power would taper off a bit heading into 2008, but JJ is right there, both in terms of counting stats & SLG. His more polished & improved plate discipline (& OBP, of course) only makes me that much more confident looking beyond 2008.

In summation, I think SS J.J. + 2B Escobar > SS Esco + 2B J.J./Rickie. Now, if Hardy would accept a move to 3B, then imo that'd be the perfect storm. However, since I think it's a bit unreasonable to hope for what would essentially be our best-case scenario, I look at it as though Hardy would not move to third.

The 3B question is a whole separate can of worms. I just hope, in any event, that Russell can come back healthy for us (the sooner the better, obviously). Bill Hall has not been the answer this season, nor will he be the answer next season. He can't hit RHP. He just isn't a good option. If the answer for 3B could be a strict Branyan/Hall platoon, that'd be great imo (Hall '08 v. LHP: .383/.549/.932 OPS; Branyan '08 v. RHP: .375/.658/1.033). Unfortunately, we have a manager that seems to value the 'I know you better' factor, and keeps Branyan from contributing because... ? We have a pretty darn good 3B candidate for '09 (Branyan/Hall), but will the manager capitalize on it?

[BillScottCanRake]

With regard to the SS situation, this seems to be the perfect place to re-state this post from ILuvDaBush made in the Hardy for Cain thread.

 

Also, today on the Fan in Green Bay, Dougie talked about how JJ wouldn't be amenable to [moving from short stop to some other position], and I can't blame him. He's been an All-Star at short and plays a very good SS, though not Escobar-quality.

 

While the Brewers could move him to another position against his wish, I feel like they'd be better off trading him if they don't feel he is the long-term answer at short. I think it's short in Milwaukee or short for another team for Hardy.

 

Moving on to third, I'd be OK with a Branyan/Hall platoon next year if it is a pretty strict platoon if Branyan is healthy. I don't think we have to worry about Yost sticking to the platoon, tho, because I don't think Branyan will be back next year (note I am not saying he shouldn't be back, just that I don't feel like he will be). If that happens, I think Hall will be made the everyday third baseman in 2009.

[logan82]

My concerns in order are

 

1. 3B Hall is not the answer. Maybe a Hall/Branyan platoon would be. The only reason to go with that platoon for next year would be to give Gamel one more year to get ready. I think they should consider finding a long term solution and shifting Gamel over to 1B in AAA.

 

2a. 2B

2b. 1B I am torn over whether Weeks or Fielder is a bigger problem. I guess in the short term it is Weeks, but Fielder either has to produce offensively at a level that makes it impossible to keep him or his defense makes him easily replaceable.

 

distant 4th SS JJ is the only infielder I don't have concerns about.

 

From all accounts Escobar is going to be an upgrade defensively wherever he plays. The problem is that he plays the same position as our best infielder and I am not sure he will hit enough to make it onto our MLB roster without a trade. I think Weeks bought himself at least a couple months next year with his post all star break numbers, but I think they will shop him around over the winter. I would be surprised to see any of our infielders traded. The only one having a good enough year to net much value is JJ.

 

Next year I would go with

1B Fielder

2B Weeks

SS Hardy

3B Hall/Branyan

while shopping Hall around and getting Gamel ready to play 3B.

[joepepsi]

It wouldn't surprise me if Rickie is traded for a more stable 2B in 2009, like, say, Brian Roberts. But I think the most likely 2009 infield is Prince, Rickie, Hardy, and somebody new, a veteran free agent or through trade, at 3B. Escobar starts at AAA or is traded to get another veteran starter or that 3B. There is simply no way Bill Hall can be counted on as anything but bench material. I'd like to see Branyan and Kapler back too. Counsell should be offered a job in coaching, but should never bat for the Brewers again.

 

I don't see how you can displace Hardy in 2009. His defense and offense are looking like a young Tejada. You don't bump a guy like that before free agency for a kid with no experience above one season at AA. If they can upgrade 3B they can afford another season with Rickie at 2B, just to see if he can develop into anything.

[Gobias Industries]

I've been going back and forth on this whole situation daily. There are decisions to be made at all 4 spots imo.

 

I like Prince; I think he's a very good hitter having a down year, but his body shape and defense are scaring me. Good defense is very underrated at 1B, especially when it comes to diggs. I've come to the conclusion he'll never become even below average at it. If I could get a package of James Loney and Broxton for him, I'd pull the trigger.

 

Hardy has probably been our best overall player this year, which is pretty crazy if you ask me. If he doesn't want to move, he's expendable. Everyone says Escobar's defense is too good to pass up at SS. JJ would bring back a nice player.

 

Weeks and Hall have been huge liabilities. Rickie is clearly a better hitter than Hall, and makes quite a bit less than Bill. Very few want to believe it, but he's been pretty solid for a nice size stretch now, and has gernerally had no luck whatsoever with hits falling in. So I think he's traded to help clear up the jam, and a vet is signed and used as a stopgap.

[endaround]

The most likely scenario is that flotsam is traded to Texas for Blaylock to platoon with Hall at 3B to give Gamel another year or Blaylock is signed to a one year deal if Texas declines the option. Hall moves to 3b platoon/utility infielder.

 

Upgrading at 2B would be really hard to do. If the Yankees cut bait on Cano you might get a discount there. But his 2nd half has been decent and the Brewers really don't match up well. Actually the problem is that after the CC trade they don't have much left to bring in top line talent without hitting them hard for at least next year. After some of the current draft picks get some time in that may change. As for FA-Orlando Hudson is the only one interesting and the Mets have a 2B situation that makes Milwaukee look great.

 

1B-Sure of the Dodgers give up a cheap 1B who put up a .900 OPS last year and a top reliever you seriously think about it, but why do the Dodgers do that? They only do that if they think Loney is't that good which means you should be careful because they should have better info than you do.

 

SS-Escobar's bat isn't ready. His BABIP in AA was .375, teh cahnce that he matches that in thr majors is close to nil, and so his BA will fall quickly and he has no power yet (ISO of .106 in AA is boderline at best). So unless blown away you keep Hardy for another year and then pawn him off in a year before he signs a humungous deal to replace Jeter in New York.

[joepepsi]

There are some options at 3B that could be available as placeholders until/if Gamel is ready to play 3rd.

 

Casey Blake is a free agent after the year. He's a decent player.

 

Melvin Mora ended up having a pretty good year. He's somewhat fragile and old and didn't really heat up until after the All Star break. But if you keep Branyan around to spell him once or twice a week, that would be a nice combo at the hot corner. . Mora is due $9 million next year and the team has an option for 2010. While he may not be worth $9 million, that's an affordable contract.

 

Adrian Beltre is also only signed for 2009. It's a steeper at $12 million, but with no option. I'm sure the Mariners would love to deal him. He is a great 3B. Maybe the best in the game. While his contract has been heavily criticized, he's actually been pretty good for the Mariners, especially the last three seasons. His career numbers at Safeco are .253/.309/.416, so you have to think he'd have better overall numbers as a Brewer. Sort of like Cameron has done.

 

So my idea would be to use Escobar as a trading chip for a pitcher or a 3B, then try to acquire Beltre first, Mora second, and failing that, signed Casey Blake to a 3 year deal.

[Gobias Industries]

They only do that if they think Loney is't that good which means you should be careful because they should have better info than you do.

That is a good point. I doubt Loney is a .900 OPS guy, but a .800 - .850 OPS with his defense would be awesome, and a clear upgrade. Colletti seems like he'd be attracted to the Fielder name.

 

All the guys joepepsi listed would be okay with me.

[Ennder]

I think Weeks has had way too strong of a second half to not keep him for next year again.

 

.247/.346/.439/.786 and without any peripherals that jump out fluke or anything like a high BABIP or something.

 

People generally forget how young these guys are and that most ballplayers don't peak until 27-29. Add in lost time to injuries with Weeks and Hardy and I still think they are the 2B/SS next year and very well could be in 2010 as well.

[BrewCrewForever]

I would like to see Hardy and Escobar up the middle in some fashion. No more Weeks, please.

[DuWayne Steurer]

We could sign chipper and have an awesome offensive 3B for about 105 games or so next year.

[TooLiveBrew]

Adrian Beltre is also only signed for 2009. It's a steeper at $12 million, but with no option. I'm sure the Mariners would love to deal him. He is a great 3B. Maybe the best in the game. While his contract has been heavily criticized, he's actually been pretty good for the Mariners, especially the last three seasons. His career numbers at Safeco are .253/.309/.416, so you have to think he'd have better overall numbers as a Brewer. Sort of like Cameron has done.

 

I'm firmly in the Beltre camp. I've had a chance to watch him somewhat regularly since moving to the NW, and let me tell you, everything you've ever heard about his defense is true, and then some. Not sure where he falls on the metric rankings, largely because I think defensive stats are still quite far away from accurately depicting defensive skill and/or value.

 

Great call on the Cameron comp, joepepsi. And fwiw, here are Beltre's road lines since becoming a Mariner:

 

2005: .248/.295/.440/.736 -- (Home OPS of .688)

2006: .283/.343/.462/.805

2007: .288/.320/.538/.858

2008: .297/.356/.526/.882 -- (** through 9/9/08)

 

 

The only problem I see is that there would be other contending teams with a need at 3B more willing to part with prospects, and perhaps even better ones than we could offer. I was rooting for Beltre to somehow be added prior to '08, and will continue that for next season, no matter how much of a pipe dream it is. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

And if you need to get Doug interested in Beltre as a target, you can always tantalize him by saying, "You'll get draft compensation when Beltre signs elsewhere as a FA"

[giffted1]

My biggest concern is Rickie weeks. He's fine at the plate but not good enough to make up for his shoddy defense. I'd love to see a Ray Durham/Mark Loretta platoon at second but won't be holding my breath.

[BREWCREW5]

All of this guys clearly depends on how the front office views next season. It may be viewed as a rebuilding year and Hardy and Fielder may both be traded for a run in 2010.

[ELCABALLO45]

I would like to see Hardy and Escobar up the middle in some fashion. No more Weeks, please.

This would be nice. No more Rickie please. He is so bad, its become funny actually.

[nate82]

I don't want to turn this into a trade discussion here but. If I were to put the infield together for 2009 I would trade Weeks to the Tigers for Polanco. The Tigers are trying to dump salary at the end of the year and this trade would make sense for both the Brewers and the Tigers. The Brewers get a veteran player that is still very productive and the Tigers get the salary relief they need. This would also give the Brewers one more year to see where Escobar is. If he is ready then trade Hardy at the deadline or at the end of the next season.

 

If the Brewers are going to stick with Weeks then they need to bring Durham back for another year. I don't think Counsell is going to come back for another year it looks as though he is done both mentally and physically. If the Brewers do trade Fielder remember that Hart was brought up as a 1B. I wouldn't mind seeing Hart moved over to 1B from the OF.

 

You have to give Weeks credit though he has improved his defense every year. While Fielder hasn't shown much or any and at times it looks as though he has regressed I'm not sure how that is possible but he has at times.

 

3B next year will be a Hall and Branyan platoon or a Hall and someone who bats left handed platoon. I believe Hall will take over Counsell's role on the team next year though returning Hall back to the super utility player role again.

[BrewCrewForever]

Nate82, you bring up some good points. My question is why do you want to trade Hardy? Wouldn't you rather move him or Escobar to 2B so you can keep both? Also for your 3B solution, no Gamel?

[nate82]

Nate82, you bring up some good points. My question is why do you want to trade Hardy? Wouldn't you rather move him or Escobar to 2B so you can keep both? Also for your 3B solution, no Gamel?

Not in 09 starting off the year I wouldn't have Gamel at 3B kind of like the Braun problem last year and I don't think Gamel is at the caliber that Braun was at hitting wise. I truly believe we won't see Gamel starting at 3B until mid 2009 the earliest but if I was betting I would say Gamel is starting for the Brewers at 3B or 1B in 2010.

 

Not really if Hardy should be moved anywhere it should be to 3B. Hardy's numbers are fine for a 3B and his defense would actually be gold glove caliber defense. Hardy would be able to win more gold gloves at 3B than at SS theres a long list of SS's who would beat Hardy out at SS compared to 3B where you have Wright, Zimmerman, and ??? SS it is Reyes, Tulowitzki (when healthy), and Ramirez. Theres others that are also as good as those three but those are the main SS's.

 

Why does this matter? Well if you have a gold glove you can increase your salary. If Hardy would accept moving to 3B I would rather have him there. Hardy has the arm and the glove to play 3B plus you can hide his lack of range at 3B better than you can at SS or 2B.

 

Why trade Hardy? Thats easy because he is the most valuable player on the Brewers. Hardy's value is higher than Prince and Rickie thus he would bring in more pitching prospects which the Brewers badly need. The Royals and even to a lesser extent the Rays need a SS and have the pitching prospects that the Brewers would match up rather well with them.

[BrewCrewForever]

Points all well taken Nate82. I guess I just dream of a team with Hardy and Escobar on it. But I totally agree, Hardy has a pretty high trade value right now and could bring in some good pitching. If we had a Weeks and Escobar middle infield perhaps Weeks could be more productive as a 6 or 7 hitter with Escobar batting lead off. But I'm not to high on Weeks so how knows. I to think Gamel will be up mid 2009 or for sure 2010 but probably not breaking camp in 09' with the big club.

[danzig6767]

I think Weeks has had way too strong of a second half to not keep him for next year again.

 

.247/.346/.439/.786 and without any peripherals that jump out fluke or anything like a high BABIP or something.

Yea his hitting has been better in the second half of the season, to bad though for Weeks and the Brewers, he also has to put on a glove and play defense. His play at second base in the second half of the year has been miserable. Between all the errors, muffed plays that were nearly errors, and a sickening amount of blown double plays, every time a ball is hit in his direction during a close game, the Brewer dugout has sweat it out in fear that Rickie will yet again turn an out/outs into baserunners.

[Tbadder]

There are some options at 3B that could be available as placeholders until/if Gamel is ready to play 3rd. <

 

This is very astute. Gamel was so bad the second half of the season I don't think we can count on him now or in the future. He'll need at least a year at AAA, and if I had my druthers he'd start next year at AA, and have to prove himself all over again. That means we need to look long term at 3rd not interim. I don't know who that means though, probably a youngish AAA player whose team undervalues him, or is blocked at the major league level. 2nd and short will take care of themselves. Hardy and Escobar are too talented for us not to have solutions. Weeks? I'd still stand behind-there's just too much raw talent, but I understand people's objections and if he left that could work out well for the Crew. That leaves 1st base--ol tons of fun. We gotta hope he's having a down year and he'll bounce back, but I'm more apt to think last year was his career year, and he's already starting the slow decline. If someone overpaid I'd move him in a heartbeat, especially since that heartbeat could be his last one. But, he's the only lefty right now and we are truly stuck with him. Too bad really. If he had any discipline he would have had an monster career. But what he really has is a major eating disorder and he needs to be put under a doctor's supervision replete with major therapy and counseling. At this point he may have the life expectancy of an NFL lineman and that should scare him and scare the people who love him and care about him.

[Ennder]

I think Weeks has had way too strong of a second half to not keep him for next year again.

 

.247/.346/.439/.786 and without any peripherals that jump out fluke or anything like a high BABIP or something.

Yea his hitting has been better in the second half of the season, to bad though for Weeks and the Brewers, he also has to put on a glove and play defense. His play at second base in the second half of the year has been miserable. Between all the errors, muffed plays that were nearly errors, and a sickening amount of blown double plays, every time a ball is hit in his direction during a close game, the Brewer dugout has sweat it out in fear that Rickie will yet again turn an out/outs into baserunners.

 

Regardless given his price, his upside etc I just don't see them making a change.

[ELCABALLO45]

I think Weeks has had way too strong of a second half to not keep him for next year again.

 

.247/.346/.439/.786 and without any peripherals that jump out fluke or anything like a high BABIP or something.

Yea his hitting has been better in the second half of the season, to bad though for Weeks and the Brewers, he also has to put on a glove and play defense. His play at second base in the second half of the year has been miserable. Between all the errors, muffed plays that were nearly errors, and a sickening amount of blown double plays, every time a ball is hit in his direction during a close game, the Brewer dugout has sweat it out in fear that Rickie will yet again turn an out/outs into baserunners.

 

Regardless given his price, his upside etc I just don't see them making a change.

His upside?

 

On second thought I don't want to turn this into a Rickie Weeks thread, But he has to go IMO.

[lukevan]

They've managed a record 20 games above .500 with Weeks on the team. I don't see how he HAS to go. As much as people dislike Rickie, there's still a chance he figures it out and becomes one of the best hitting 2B in the league. At his cheap price and with other places to spend money this offseason, not to mention his trade value being about as low as is could be right now, it's probable that Weeks will be back next season at 2B. Now, if he doesn't put it together in the first 2 months of 2009, I can see Escobar getting a chance there by about June.

 

Would Escobar need to play 2B in AAA for awhile, if he were to be moved?

[yoshii8]

I hope that we keep 3/4 of the same infield w/ Fielder, Weeks, and Hardy in it, I think all will improve, and will continue to be a big part of the ball club. I would hate to sell low on Fielder and Weeks, and I think Hardy is a more important part of the ballclub on and off the field than everybody realizes.

 

I think it would be very smart to have Gamel and Escobar play in AAA next year. Gamel needs to keep showing major improvement defensively, and Escobar isn't needed yet w/ Hardy's play, is still very young, and could improve more w/ the bat w/ one more year in the minors.

 

I would like to see a trade for an everyday 3rd baseman, 1st choice would be Kouzmanoff if available, I also wouldn't mind seeing Beltre w/ the team, although both would demand a few good prospects. I also wouldn't mind seeing Blalock brought in, as long as someone else (Hall) got to face lefties.

 

Unless we can get something for him, or unload his contract, I would like to see Hall (if he finally realizes he's not a superstar) go back into the 2b, SS, 3b, and maybe some OF utility role that he used to do so well. Although, after his miserable season this year, I'm not sure that a change of scenery wouldn't be the best option for both Hall and the Brewers.