Bullpen, Melvin's biggest failure.

[PeaveyFury]

If the game is on the line (1 or 2 run lead, 7th inning on) can we trust Gagne, Riske, Mota, Shouse (other than situationally), or Torres. I don't think so. And I don't think Nedley does either.

 

Well, if Ned doesn't, then why does he keep using Shouse non-situationally, Gagne in the 8th inning of close games, etc?

[trwi7]

I'd have to research that first question, but off the top of my head Billy Beane (A's), or Bill Smith of the Twins.

 

What would Melvin emulate from Smith? He's been on the job for less than a year.

 

The linebrink trade was bad last year, worse this year, and when Inman and Garrison reach the majors it will be a horrible trade.

 

How can you possibly say this without knowing what Inman and Garrison do in the majors and not knowing what Frederickson and Dykstra do in the majors? If Inman goes on to become a perennial Cy Young award winner and Garrison a solid middle of the rotation starter, then yeah, you can say it's a horrible trade. If Frederickson becomes an ace or a knockout closer and Dykstra is our starting CF in a few years then you could say we got a great deal. Way too early to start saying who won that trade.

[paul253]

Frederickson apparently has no idea how to throw strikes, and never has, so i think at this point at least its safe to say both Inman and Garrison will have more success than he will.

 

On a related note, I think Melvin's biggest failure, I guess you have to add Jack Z. in there, is the failure to develope any pitching, Gallardo and Parra and the only two starters that have had any success whatsoever while guys like Hendrickson ( i know Bando drafted him) Luis Martinez, Mike Jones, Mark Rogers, Dana Eveland have either taken a dump when they hit the majors or got hurt and will probably never make the majors. Even Jeffress, pretty much the only real good pitching prospect, hasnt had much success other than a high strikeout total. Perhaps if we could develope some pitching , we wouldnt have to take risks like on guys like Gagne and Mota.

[DonMoney4Mgr]

If the game is on the line (1 or 2 run lead, 7th inning on) can we trust Gagne, Riske, Mota, Shouse (other than situationally), or Torres. I don't think so. And I don't think Nedley does either.

 

Well, if Ned doesn't, then why does he keep using Shouse non-situationally, Gagne in the 8th inning of close games, etc?

 

He does, but he's shown a reluctance. IMO, that's why he's leaving his starters in longer than he has in the past. CC 130 pitches one game, Sheets has gone over 120 twice. Also, Shouse still gets hammered by RHH. (.289/.367/.789)

[trwi7]

Frederickson apparently has no idea how to throw strikes, and never has, so i think at this point at least its safe to say both Inman and Garrison will have more success than he will.

Really? After less than one year of pro ball you're willing to say that? I'm not saying he's guaranteed to be anything in the majors, or even has a good shot of making the majors and I didn't like the pick when we made it but to give up on the guy without even a full year of pro ball under his belt is ridiculous. Inman, Garrison, Dykstra and Frederickson have all done the exact same thing in the majors. Absolutely nothing. Until they've been given chances to succeed/fail you can't really grade the trade.

[PeaveyFury]

He does, but he's shown a reluctance.

 

He had about 11 options down in the pen last night, and yet he continues to use Gagne in high leverage situations with clearly better options available. I don't think there's reluctance. Incompetence, maybe.

[jjfanec]

Frederickson apparently has no idea how to throw strikes, and never has, so i think at this point at least its safe to say both Inman and Garrison will have more success than he will.

If neither Garrison nor Inman make more than a back of the rotation type impact than it really does not matter. Inman has struggled to pitch past the 5th inning in AA this year so he has set the world on fire. I do agree with the idea that we need to develop relief pitching better and I think that was addressed in this draft moreso than in the past.

As for the main point of the thread. Gagne has been awful so it was a bad signing even if it was just for a year, but like so many have said there were not a lot of options out there that have turned out better. I am interested to see what is out there this year that could help us. Relief pitchers are just so hard to predict. Most people thought Riske was a good signing but he has struggled this year. Torres though not a great pitcher has been very effective, especially for what we gave up to get him. Mota has had really bad stretches but is pitching a lot better right now. But it is hard to find many bullpens that are really effective right now.

[Never Outhustled]

On a related note, I think Melvin's biggest failure, I guess you have to add Jack Z. in there, is the failure to develope any pitching, Gallardo and Parra and the only two starters that have had any success whatsoever while guys like Hendrickson ( i know Bando drafted him) Luis Martinez, Mike Jones, Mark Rogers, Dana Eveland have either taken a dump when they hit the majors or got hurt and will probably never make the majors. Even Jeffress, pretty much the only real good pitching prospect, hasnt had much success other than a high strikeout total. Perhaps if we could develope some pitching , we wouldnt have to take risks like on guys like Gagne and Mota.

Jack Z has only had 13 picks in the 1st 2 rounds of his 1st 8 drafts, and he has only used 4 of them on pitchers. 1 of them,Gallardo, is outstanding, and another, Jeffress, is an outstanding prospect. Jack Z has done an awesome job considering he is stuck working in the confines of paying slot value for his picks. The team drafted as many pitchers in the 1st 2 rounds of the draft this year as it did in Z's 1st 8 years. It will be exciting to watch them develop.

 

As for Inmn, Melvin did an outstanding job of dealing him when his value was highest, as its become pretty clear that his future is in the pen. At the time of the deal, many called it horrible because they projected Inman to end 2008 as part of the Brewers rotation. Instead, he hasn't even hit AAA yet.

 

As for building a better pen, the Brewers need to do what teams with successful pens have done. They've either picked up relievers in trade just befoe they've broken out, or sign Japanese relievers. The Brewers don't even scout Japan, and barely do anything in the DR or Venezuela, because Attanosio doesn't give the team nearly the baseball budgett we're lead to believe.

 

The biggest thing the Brewers can do is stop wasting innings and money on Doug Melvin's greatest mistake, Derrick Turnbow. The could have been dumped in trade each ofthe last 2 offseasons, but Melvin was too attached to move on.

[Katuluu]

The fact is that they have focused too much on drafting and developing starting pitching in the minors and not enough on developing relievers ... Relievers have been an afterthought in the minors, a place where guys are moved after they fail at starting and then given up on.

Dillard was always viewed by the organization as a potential reliever in the majors. Their have been several other pitchers drafted by the Brewers that they view as potential relievers but have them start in the minors to aid in development. It is a pretty common practice by most teams.

 

But I do agree that they have put a priority on starting pitching and position players. But I would also argue that a team should put a priority on those types of players, as they typically have more value then a relief pitcher. Prioritizing relief pitching over anything else isn't a very good way to build a successful franchise. They've developed a few relief pitchers up to this point, now it is simply a matter of convincing Yost to put them in situations and roles in which they are most likely to succeed.

[LouisEly]

I'm not saying that relief pitching should be a priority over starting pitching or position players. I'm saying that if you identify someone who is a good relief candidate (two good pitches but can't develop a third, LOOGYs, etc.), keep them in the pen and develop them as a reliever. Guys like Sarfate and Capellan for example should have been moved to the pen earlier than they were. But it seems like they don't move guys from starters to the pen until the last minute (or until the go from AAA to Milwaukee) or they are constantly shuffling them back and forth from starter to reliever, and then wonder why they can't make the adjustment. And guys like Brad Lidge, Huston Street, Chad Cordero, etc., who were developed as relievers from day one haven't done too bad.

 

And since it has already been hijacked, Will Inman this year has walked 71 in 135 innings and has a GO/AO of 0.68 - that does not bode well for future success, especially in Miller Park. I think Melvin sold high there.

[danzig6767]

I really like the potential future of both Stetter and Dillard as fixtures in the bullpen. I didn't like seeing Stetter getting sent down when he was and if Gagne wasn't owed so much money for the season, he'd have been waived awhile ago and i think Dillard would have provided better production.

 

We are just caught in what often happens around baseball when a team gives a player a lot of money, they rarely will bite the bullet and just release the guy even though it should be obvious that the player stinks. If Gagne was making say 1.2 million this year, he'd have either been waived or sent to the minors if he'd accept the demotion. Gagne has been a terrible pitcher since late July of last season and has shown absolutely nothing this year to find hope that he has something left to turn things around. The 10 million is already spent, the Brewers should have just cut their losses and not suffered in the standings by continuing to hope/pray that the mistake still had any use.

 

Plus, the worst part of Melvin refusing to suck it up and waive Gagne was it left him in the bullpen for Ned to foolishly keep using in close games simply because Yost thinks Gagne has "veteran makeup" from his past days closing games. With expanded rosters i guess that i wouldn't care he remained on the team for garbage innings, but i still can't feel 100% sure that if he happens to throw a scoreless inning or two, even if balls were hit hard, that suddenly Yost won't proclaim Gagne to be "fixed" and ready to go back to pitching in crucial situations. Then we'll be right back to seeing that dumbfounded look on Ned's face as some hitter jacks a two run bomb in the 8th inning of a game we were up a run in.

[Never Outhustled]

And guys like Brad Lidge, Huston Street, Chad Cordero, etc., who were developed as relievers from day one haven't done too bad.

Lidge was a starter in the minors until non-stop injuries forced a move to the pen. Street and Cordero were 1st round picks (I think Lidge was an early pick too IIRC). Do you think the Brewers should use there 1st round picks on college closers? Myself, I don't, because I wouldn't want to end up with a Ryan Wagner or a David Aardsma. I think your better off drafting higher ceiling position players, create a surplus, and then trade for bullpen help.

[dlk9s]

Frederickson apparently has no idea how to throw strikes, and never has, so i think at this point at least its safe to say both Inman and Garrison will have more success than he will.

Really? After less than one year of pro ball you're willing to say that? I'm not saying he's guaranteed to be anything in the majors, or even has a good shot of making the majors and I didn't like the pick when we made it but to give up on the guy without even a full year of pro ball under his belt is ridiculous.

No kidding. I think we should give him more than 32 innings in the minors before tossing him to the curb.

[biedergb]

But it seems like they don't move guys from starters to the pen until the last minute (or until the go from AAA to Milwaukee) or they are constantly shuffling them back and forth from starter to reliever, and then wonder why they can't make the adjustment.

Keeping them as starters in the minors is a common practice IIRC, because it lets them pitch more innings on a regular basis (and use all their pitches). Many top relievers are former starters (ie, Joe Nathan, Jonathan Papelbon, Kerry Wood, or in the past Izzy/Gagne), so as a high quality arm in the minors they are allowed to try to fail, then when they do they can make the conversion. Or they are groomed for the bullpen, but get extra innings as starters (ie B. Wagner, Lidge). I don't know that it takes something inherently different from being a starter to reliever. I'd bet is CC or Ben were our closer they'd be solid, but that wouldn't be getting the best our of their abilities.

[paul253]

Really? After less than one year of pro ball you're willing to say that

 

His walk rate in college was just as bad. Last season at the U. of SF he had 61 walks in 75.1 innings. I had a hard time finding any stats from previous seasons, but I cant imagine his walk numbers all of a sudden jumped up his last year in college. Thats why I said what I said, it wasnt based entirely on his 32 innings in West Virginia. He may get it fixed, he may not, but right now its hard to compare his success to that of Will Inman, who is still fairly young for his league.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

I don't think Torres is very good either. His K and BB rates bother me.

While that is true, he's the best we got. It's not good to have a ground ball closer with the worst infield defense in the majors. His 2.40 ERA isn't too shabby though.

[trwi7]

I don't think Torres is very good either. His K and BB rates bother me.

He's walking a little over 3.5 per 9. Just barely above the MLB average. I don't know why that concerns you. I don't know why his strikeout numbers concern you either. I could understand it if he was a flyball pitcher, but he's getting 2.5 groundballs for every flyball.

[logan82]

trwi7 wrote:

He's walking a little over 3.5 per 9. Just barely above the MLB average. I don't know why that concerns you. I don't know why his strikeout numbers concern you either. I could understand it if he was a flyball pitcher, but he's getting 2.5 groundballs for every flyball.

Our defense is poor and having a closer who relies on his defense is a recipe for disaster.

[trwi7]

Our defense is poor and having a closer who relies on his defense is a recipe for disaster.

You said you don't think he's very good. Like it's his fault he got traded to a team with bad infield defense.

[sweepscc]

I wasn't thrilled with the bullpen configuration in the spring and I still don't get what Melvin was expecting. Improvement was shaky at best over a Cordero led pen when you sign a couple guys coming off disaster years and a reliever thinking about retirement. Also if this is our "all in" year Melvin could have scoured the league for a reliever producing in '08 among the bottom teams in July. Depending on the talent level I wouldn't have minded giving up a high to mid level prospect(s) for help at a run this year.

[PeaveyFury]

Also if this is our "all in" year Melvin could have scoured the league for a reliever producing in '08 among the bottom teams in July

 

Well, considering that Melvin still gets raked over the coals here for doing that last year (including in this very thread), it's kind of a lose-lose situation for him among the fans.

 

I wonder if they should have made a bigger effort to get Taschner back with Durham in the Giants trade, since it was initially rumored that he'd be involved anyway.

[sweepscc]

Also if this is our "all in" year Melvin could have scoured the league for a reliever producing in '08 among the bottom teams in July

 

Well, considering that Melvin still gets raked over the coals here for doing that last year (including in this very thread), it's kind of a lose-lose situation for him among the fans.

 

I wonder if they should have made a bigger effort to get Taschner back with Durham in the Giants trade, since it was initially rumored that he'd be involved anyway.

Pads fans were rejoicing when they got rid of Linebrink. Hopefully he would have gone after someone more productive instead of a guy with peripherals on the decline.

[PeaveyFury]

Linebrink has a 2.20 ERA, .95 Whip, and absurdly good peripherals this year. I think his demise was greatly exaggerated.

[TheCrew07]

Linebrink has a 2.20 ERA, .95 Whip, and absurdly good peripherals this year. I think his demise was greatly exaggerated.

To be fair he did miss all of August.

[jeffy]

What would it have cost to sign Linebrink? I had thought they would look beyond a few bad outings and try to keep him (and for all I know, maybe they did, I did not pay much attention to things during the off season)