Sabathia No-Hitter Watch... Latest: CC no hitter scoring decision is upheld (reply #153)

[TooLiveBrew]

His reasoning is because of the spin? No spin

 

Not true -- replays clearly showed the ball spinning/rolling towards 3B. This was my problem with the play when it happened. The ball was rolling away from where CC needed to throw it. I think there's an optical illusion at play in the video due to the shadows. I haven't yet seen an angle where I'm convinced that CC actually got the ball in his hand. What I thought happened at the time (& have not changed) is that he went to grab the ball, but he was trying to grab it in the direction in which it was already spinning & moving. So, in effect, CC's contact with the ball served to nudge it further along its course, making it harder to pick up.

 

For those of us that used to play 'Quarters' in middle/high school, think of it that way. CC's effort was akin to the best method of keeping the quarter spinning, which is to flick the coin following the spin it already has. The normal & easier way that a baseball is fielded in regards to its spin is the equivalent of flicking a spinning quarter against its current spin... which makes sense since the objective in picking up a rolling baseball is to change its direction/movement.

 

Now, how that plays into whether or not it should have been an error, I'm not completely certain. But hearing the scorer use that as part of his judgment makes me think there's only a very slim chance this gets overturned.

 

My computer isn't current enough to handle MLB.com videos, so I'd ask others to please look at the precise moment that CC goes to pick up the ball. Instead of watching him 'pick it up', which imo is the implied action there, watch the ball alone (if you can) to see if it ever definitively makes it into CC's hand. Even if it doesn't the play may still have been an error, but the ball's spin/rolling imo weighs heavily into this.

[RightFieldCoder]

There's only one solution. On the 10th against the Reds, CC should strike out all 27 hitters. (I picked the 10th because that is the next CC game I will attend. If he wants to get selfish he can wait to do it against the Cubs.

[Postseason2006]

Sabathia tried to make a barehanded pickup of Andy LaRoche's softly hit grounder, but the Brewers ace dropped it. Official scorer Bob Webb immediately ruled it a hit, explaining he watched LaRoche out of the batter's box and the runner was two-thirds of the way down the line as Sabathia was picking the ball up.

 

He also said the ball was spinning as it went to the left of the mound "with a left-handed pitcher going to get it. It's a difficult play."

 

Milwaukee manager Ned Yost on Monday said it was "not a very good explanation in my mind, because, number one, the ball was not spinning, the ball was rolling. There's a huge difference.

 

"It's a lot easier for a left-handed pitcher to go to the third base line and make that throw than a right-handed pitcher. The explanation didn't cover it for me, but, again, it's water under the bridge and it's all said and done."

 

Yost's opinion was backed up by Detroit manager Jim Leyland on Monday.

 

"Error. Definitely an error," Leyland said. "The guy wasn't halfway to first.

 

 

From yahoo. The problem I have is that the clown scoring makes his comment about where LaRoche was but a replay if used would've shown this guy otherwise. Baseball should put the push to have his job taken away to fix the mess that he's made.

[razzzorsharp]

The guy was on ESPN2 and said he didn't envision overturning his ruling.

[dlk9s]

The problem I have is that the clown scoring makes his comment about where LaRoche was but a replay if used would've shown this guy otherwise. Baseball should put the push to have his job taken away to fix the mess that he's made.

a) He did use a replay.

b) To fire the guy for this would be absurd.

[1992casey]

Trenni explained today that MLB can't overturn the scorer's ruling. The most it can do is attempt to convince him to change it himself.

[BrewCrewForever]

There's only one solution. On the 10th against the Reds, CC should strike out all 27 hitters. (I picked the 10th because that is the next CC game I will attend. If he wants to get selfish he can wait to do it against the Cubs.

Sounds good to me Robin. I to will be at the game on the 10th so seeing CC throw is "2nd" no-hitter and first at home would be nice.

[Postseason2006]

The problem I have is that the clown scoring makes his comment about where LaRoche was but a replay if used would've shown this guy otherwise. Baseball should put the push to have his job taken away to fix the mess that he's made.

a) He did use a replay.

b) To fire the guy for this would be absurd.

 

What replay did he use? Him comment about where the running Laroche is absolutely ABSURB. That is the one problem I have. Did anyone listen to John Kruk last night. And yes, he should be fired because A) he is not objectively looking at the play B) he also for reasons does not like the Brewers. Granted, the second is opinion but making the comments he did, means he is using his feelings not objectivity.

[dlk9s]

What replay did he use?

During the radio broadcast, Jim Powell confirmed that the official scorer did watch the replay several times. I don't know the exact angle he saw. I can only assume he saw what everybody else was able to see on replay.

And yes, he should be fired because A) he is not objectively looking at the play B) he also for reasons does not like the Brewers.

I'll go back to that word "absurd" again. Unless you have proof of these things (and you did admit that point b above is your opinion), then it is unfair to Webb to make these accusations.

 

Look, I don't agree with the ruling, but I have no reason to believe he had any agenda. I feel that he did not reverse it out of stubbornness, but I nothing he did warrants his dismissal.

[RU Rah Rah]

I agree that it probably was an error rather than a hit, but I wonder how we'd be arguing if the shoe were on the other foot and the play in question involved, say, Braun extending a hitting streak to 45 games or something.

 

Non-routine plays are always a gray area for the official scorer, especially on that part of the field. I think we've all seen botched bare-hand pick-ups by the 3B that have been called hits -- without much attention paid to where the runner was on the baseline.

 

Also, it seems that CC himself knew the play at 1B was going to be close -- that's why he rushed himself and fumbled the ball.

 

(Again, I'm not arguing that it was the right call.)

[lcbj68c]

Also, it seems that CC himself knew the play at 1B was going to be close -- that's why he rushed himself and fumbled the ball.

 

Isn't that the error? The error in judgment that the play was going to be close and then rushing yourself when in actuality, you had "all day"?

[pretendastronaut]

Listen to Brewers official scorer Tim O'Driscoll's take on the questionable infield hit that CC Sabathia allowed on Sunday.

[RLaZeR19]

Does anyone have a video of this play? i missed it...

[jeffy]

you can see it here: http://milwaukee.brewers....808313398803&c_id=mil

 

Interesting because it is Pittsburgh announcers and one of them says right away "...really a simple play for Sabathia..."

[RU Rah Rah]

Also, it seems that CC himself knew the play at 1B was going to be close -- that's why he rushed himself and fumbled the ball.

 

Isn't that the error? The error in judgment that the play was going to be close and then rushing yourself when in actuality, you had "all day"?

In retrospect, yes. I'm just pointing out that it wasn't necessarily clear, at that moment, that he would have gotten the runner at first -- at least from CC's own perspective.

 

This underscores the problem with going semi-Zapruder with the replay, several days after the fact. I can understand the reluctance to change the call based on speculation that he probably would have gotten the runner at first if he had successfully made a great play.

 

A parallel might be a play deep in the hole at shortstop. Let's say JJ ranges far to his backhand and fields a ball in short left. JJ has a great arm, and the runner is slow, so it's possible that he can throw the guy out, but he bobbles and doesn't even make a throw. I think that's generally scored a hit -- even though JJ might very well throw the guy out if he doesn't bobble.

 

(Again, I'm not agreeing with this POV, but I can see the merit in it.)

[lcbj68c]

I can see merit in it also. But I think simply because a guy rushes should have more to do with making it an error than making it a hit. Another example, Hunter Pence hits a Sunday hop to Fielder who sees Pence is husting up the line (opposite of what LaRoche was running, but beside the point). Prince wrongly thinks he has to rush to the bag and runs before getting the ball in his mitt. Instead of picking the ball up and running again, he gives up because "he thinks" Pence will beat him. I'd still give Prince the error on the play. It's an error to rush yourself, an error to drop the ball, an errot to fail to try again. These are all things that Sabathia failed to do, couple that with a slower running LaRoche and this was a no-brainer error to me. I just think the perception that this was "in the hole" or "too far up the line" is a fallacy.

[jeffy]

I'd like FSN to dig into the archives and show the play from 1999 that resulted in these paragraphs appearing in the Philadelphia Inquirer on June 30, 1999:

Fuming Francona. Francona was unhappy with the official scoring at Three Rivers Stadium on Monday night. Specifically, he felt Doug Glanville should have been given a base hit when he led off the game by stroking a pitch right back at pitcher Kris Benson. The ball hit Benson's foot and was ruled an error by scorer Bob Webb.

``I think it stinks,'' Francona said of the call. ``That's an error when this pig jumps out of my ear. That just isn't fair.''

Francona attempted to speak with Webb but was unsuccessful

Not sure if the link will work:

http://proquest.umi.com/p...amp;RQT=309&VName=PQD

[JohnBriggs12]

This is why I'd fire this guy.

 

He robbed the 21,000 mostly Pirate diehards that showed up of what would have been the only drama of the entire game. Whether as a Pirate fan you'd be rooting hard for your team to break up a no hitter in the late innings or wanted to witness a rare feat even if it was against, aren't you as an employee of MLB the least bit sensitive to the entertainment value for fans who pay your salary as well? Doesn't it occur to you that by the 5th inning, many fans have picked up when one team or another has not gotten a hit yet?

 

And doesn't a pitcher who hasn't allowed a hit yet deserve a second or third look at the very least before you post your decision on a play that is clearly at best questionable?

At least if you've taken some time, there's proof that you looked closely at the play and for that couple of minutes at least there is drama for the fans.

 

My own gut feeling is this guy is a Pirate diehard himself and he let that influence his hasty decision. He wanted to see the no hitter broken up. He figured by ruling quickly it would appear to give more certainty to the call.

[TooLiveBrew]

couple that with a slower running LaRoche and this was a no-brainer error to me

 

The funny part is that, in Webb's phone interview on ESPN... was it Outside the Lines? I know Bob Ley was hosting... anyway... Webb described LaRoche's role in the play as a (paraphrasing), 'fast runner running down the line'.

 

I think the guy is certainly giving waaayy too much credit to how difficult the play actually was. It's a shame that he seems unwilling to admit mistakes and/or correct them.

[Hammer]

President Gammons just trashed Yost on ESPN saying something like Yost was classless for attacking the official scorer personally after the game. For the first time, I agree with Petey...

[Gobias Industries]

I've always found the official scoring bias to be one of the most out-of-date aspects of any pro sport.

 

There should be a set scorer(s) that travel with that respective umpire crew, not one who stays with the home team and obviously doesn't have his priorities straight.

[windiv07]

http://www.sportsline.com/columns/story/10957550

 

The official scorer has 24 hours to reverse his call. Did Ned seal the deal costing CC the no-hitter with his post game interview reaction, calling it a 'joke' and accusing the scorer of 'depriving MLB of a nice no-hitter'?

 

Here's what CBS says in the aforementioned article:

 

"Baseball rules gave Webb 24 hours to change his mind, and he declined. Good for him. Shame on the Brewers for even asking, and asking is a nice way of saying %%%**%*% and moaning and whining and crying. "

 

Wow. This leaves me wondering: Had the Brewers (in other words, Ned) taken the high road after that game, might Webb have reconsidered?

[jason21nl]

ned stood up for his player, and it was a complete joke. For one of the only times this year, I really liked Yost.

[brains and braun]

Who wrote that? Seems like they have a little axe to grind with the Brewers. "Good for him?" SHouldn't his reversal or lackthereof be based on whether it was a good call, especially as a major milestone is on the line. Oh, and as far as whining and crying goes, I'm not a Ned backer, but this was a major call and should have been treated as such at the time and now. Objectivity should win out here, and most everyone not directly involved agrees that the play should have been an error. We sure are petty for wanting the first no-hitter in the last 21 years. This same no-talent clown writer will surely come up with some story of post-season magic should the Brewers finally taste October success.

[bucks2281]

The writers for CBS Sportsline are notoriously awful. Gregg Doyle was the same writer who called Brian Butch a baby in March 2007 after he left a game versus Ohio State. With the NFL season starting up, and the MLB postseason on the horizon, take a look at some of their "reporting." It's poorly-written, biased, and downright embarassing -- probably the worst sports website on the internet.

 

I don't think the call would have been overturned under any circumstances. Bob Webb seemed pretty adamant about this one.