Corey Hart's Future as a Brewer

[Gobias Industries]

I know this is probably not the most appropriate time for next year roster discussions, as we are in an exciting and unknown territory for any Brewer fan basically under the age of 30. But all these "Trade Hardy" and "Trade Fielder" threads got me thinking whether Corey is actually the most logical Brewer to unload in the offseason.

 

With Cameron's big year, Braun transitioning to the OF pretty well, and a glut of OF's in the minors I think the guy is expendable. He'd bring a nice starter back, and his strength (High SLG, Mediocre OBP) is kind of redundant on this team with guys like Braun, Hardy, and Cameron.

 

Trading Hart would allow us to keep Hardy and move him to 3B. His offense would be just a bit above average, but the thought of a Hardy and Escobar left side is very intriguing. Gamel could be moved to a corner spot, hopefully being called up around June 1 next year. Cameron could hold down CF and you just have to hope either Cain or Brantley can become the replacement in 2010.

 

Thoughts?

[datrain711]

My 1st thought is that Hardy is 3rd in the NL in OPS among shortstops, so WHY does everyone want him out of there so badly?

 

As for Hart, I have to believe he is in the Brewers long term plans. He has been solid in the outfield, has speed and power, and seems to fit in well with the team.

 

I think sometimes we are a bit quick to assume that our prospects are going to come in and automatically do as good or better than the guys we currently have. This can be a dangerous assumption

[Gobias Industries]

From all reports, Escobar figures to be a game changer with the glove immediately, and his stats show he's starting to click offensively. 3B is probably the Brewers' biggest hole, and JJ fits in nicely there.

 

I think it's almost a given that Sheets and Sabathia won't be with the team next year. We're gonna have to replace one of them from outside of the organization. As you said, Hart has speed and power. He's a unique talent that is probably worth more to another team than ours, as we have guys in the system that project well out there.

[jwill535]

OF is a position of strength within the organization. Hardy moving to third and bringing up Escobar and using Hart for a SP is better then moving Hardy to 2nd, bringing in Escobar and trying to trade Rickie for a 3rd basemen or SP. Going with the second option still leaves you a hole at 3rd** or SP that isn't a strength for this team.

 

**I don't really consider Gamel a 3rd basemen till he can prove he can at least be below average to average at 3rd

[Bring Back the Stein]

But...but...I LIKE Hart. Can't we keep him, pa?

[Thurston Fluff]

Then we should trade the guys who project well out there for a pitcher. Next year we are going to need more offense than this year with the loss of Sheets and CC. Trades don't bring Cy Young winners for anyone less than a MVP candidate. I don't see why trading a guy who is about to enter his prime is going to help this offense get better.

I say keep all of them next year and make Escobar and Gamel force their way up in 2010. No way do I want to rely on two rookies up from AA next year. Not when we already have better options who have proven themselves.

Hart has just started to enter his prime years and we have him under our control for a reasonable rate for several more years. Not the best of time to get rid of players if you want to continue to win.

[BillScottCanRake]

From all reports, Escobar figures to be a game changer with the glove immediately, and his stats show he's starting to click offensively. 3B is probably the Brewers' biggest hole, and JJ fits in nicely there.

 

I have seen a lot of posts that talk about Hardy moving from short to another position. I wouldn't assume that Hardy will be OK with a move to third base or second base.

 

Much of Hardy's offensive value (as well as his monetary and trade value) comes in large part because he plays short. While one might argue that Hardy's an elite hitter for a shortstop, he's not an elite hitter as, say, a LFer, like Braun was last year when he played third base.

 

Right now Hardy's 826 OPS is third in MLB for shortstops, behind only Hanley Ramirez and Jose Reyes.

 

That same 826 OPS would be the sixth best for MLB third basemen and sixth best for MLB second basemen.

 

When Braun moved to LF, it didn't really cost him anything. Hardy moving from short could cost him quite a bit of money down the road. And while he might well be OK with that, I think there is an equal chance he won't be.

[jhart05]

Corey Hart isn't going anywhere.

[And That]

Corey Hart isn't going anywhere.

Why do you think that?

 

I agree that Hardy couldn't be too enthused about changing positions. If the Brewers want to keep him past 2010 and keep him at a position other than SS, they're going to have to tell him that pretty soon and sign him to an extension (say, a 4 year deal this offseason).

 

Dealing Hart makes some sense, but not just because the Brewers have other options in the outfield coming through the system. I'd gauge interest in Hart and Fielder this offseason, but probably wouldn't move either unless I was blown away with an offer. With Cameron all but a lock to come back, Hart may be more expendable in the offseason than Fielder (or Hardy), but that doesn't mean we should trade him just yet.

[Thurston Fluff]

BSCR what you said has merit but don't discount the defensive side of things. He's an average shortstop range wise and steady but unspectacular with the glove over all. He'd be a very good second baseman and his lack of speed wouldn't be a problem at third like it can be at short. I'm not os sure there is that big a difference between an A+ defender at second or third who would still put up the sixth best OPS offensively and a B defensive shortstop who has the 3rd best OPS.

[endaround]

And Jeter was brutal defensively and became a legend. And like I mentioned in another post-Hardy could easily sign with New York after Jeter's deal is through. Jeter's deal is up after 2010. Hardy becomes a FA after 2010. You do the math.

[Thurston Fluff]

And Jeter was brutal defensively and became a legend.

 

Hitting .316, with a .386 OBP and .845 OPS and stealing 273 bases in 364 attempts for his career might have lead some to overlook his defensive problems. I think he would have had similar money and notoriety if he would have played third or second as well.

 

I think Hardy would have to improve on his career .269 BA, 329 OBP and 772 OPS and 5 stolen bases vs 5 caught stealing to be able to slide by as a below average defender.

 

And like I mentioned in another post-Hardy could easily sign with New York after Jeter's deal is through. Jeter's deal is up after 2010. Hardy becomes a FA after 2010. You do the math.

 

I have a feeling Hardy won't get to free agency. I think he gets traded after 09 when Escobar should be more than ready and that team signs him long term.

[strobl2]

What about getting rid of fielder and keeping Hart. Our lineup would look like this then.

RF Braun, CF Cameron, LF Hart, 3B Hardy, SS Escobar, 2B Weeks/Durham, 1B Gamel , C Kendall/ or maybe Salome.

[bullox]

A lot of people bring up the assumption that because Hardy would move to 3B, he would somehow forget how to play SS and lose any and all value he had while he did play that position. I don't see any reason why Hardy wouldn't be able to make the switch back to SS if he were ever traded, thus putting in to question any loss of value a position switch would portend.

[jhart05]

Corey Hart isn't going anywhere.

Why do you think that?

 

I don't think they will/can resign Prince, so he's gone. Also don't think Hardy will be happy about moving when Escobar is ready to take over, so he's gone.

 

So I think they will go after Hart more than the other guys, knowing in the back of their minds they are going to loose Prince and Hardy. And I think Corey will be a 30/30 guy very soon in his career.

[BillScottCanRake]

BSCR what you said has merit but don't discount the defensive side of things. He's an average shortstop range wise and steady but unspectacular with the glove over all. He'd be a very good second baseman and his lack of speed wouldn't be a problem at third like it can be at short. I'm not os sure there is that big a difference between an A+ defender at second or third who would still put up the sixth best OPS offensively and a B defensive shortstop who has the 3rd best OPS.

 

I think an 825-850 OPS-type player earns more as a B defensive shortstop than a gold glove second basemen or third basemen. Unless you are an elite defender playing a premium defensive position, I don't think your defensive prowess earns you much money. And second and third aren't nearly as important as short or CF or catcher.

A lot of people bring up the assumption that because Hardy would move to 3B, he would somehow forget how to play SS and lose any and all value he had while he did play that position. I don't see any reason why Hardy wouldn't be able to make the switch back to SS if he were ever traded, thus putting in to question any loss of value a position switch would portend.

 

I don't think he'd forget how to play the position. And he wouldn't lose all his value, but I think it's far to say he'd lose some of it.

 

If Hardy moved to second for the 2009 and 2010 seasons, I would tend to think teams would be less certain of how he'd play SS in 2011 than they would be had he played there all along. If Bill Hall were moved back to short for the 2009 season I'd be worried he be less effective there than he was in 2006. Any doubts about his ability to play the position would probably affect his value.

[dadofandrew]

If Hart and Hardy want to sign long-term this offseason, both probably will. I would say both are pretty likely to be offered, if they haven't been already. They may well make decisions based on that at that point.

[Gobias Industries]

And Jeter was brutal defensively and became a legend. And like I mentioned in another post-Hardy could easily sign with New York after Jeter's deal is through. Jeter's deal is up after 2010. Hardy becomes a FA after 2010. You do the math.

I don't think Jeter will want to hang it up that soon. He seems to be a guy that will hang around a long time, a la Craig Biggio. I doubt Hank Steinbrenner would let him go somewhere else anyway.

 

I'd think that Hardy would be okay with a move on the diamond if it came with a contract extension, but who knows.

 

I'm starting to think more and more that we should ride out Prince's 6 years and just take the comp picks. He's just too good of a hitter to trade this early.

[dadofandrew]

I'd think that Hardy would be okay with a move on the diamond if it came with a contract extension, but who knows.

 

I do too. Who knows, it may end up like Braun, that he is fine with switching.

[brewizard]

I think Hardy wants to be a Brewer and that the Brewers would be crazy to trade him now. I think that if the Brewers were willing to sign both Hart and Hardy long term, it would be a done deal for both. You guys are right that sans pitching, the Brewers will need bats to ride out the inevitable fall off.

[BrewCrewForever]

I personally would much rather keep Hart and Hardy and trade Fielder. At some point.

[mkm13]

I'm starting to think more and more that we should ride out Prince's 6 years and just take the comp picks. He's just too good of a hitter to trade this early.

Hitting is only a part of the game. His defense and slow base running cost us many runs a year. If you look at his overall value...imo he is just a slighlty above average 1st baseman. His OPS is only 8th in the MLB this year, so it is not like he is an extreme standout as an offensive 1st baseman. His defense at 1st is close to the worst. His speed and baserunning as a 1st baseman is close to the worst.

 

IMO teams will overvalue him and we could get better value for him than he is worth.