Hardy for Matt Cain?; Latest -- Gammons reports Hardy AND Fielder for Cain? (reply #52)

[StearnsFTW]

I agree. I'd rather go with a "Heether type" for the minimum than a "Loretta type" for 2 mil+. As for the original topic, the more I read about Cain and the Giants, the more I think it's a pipe dream to get him for Hardy. More like Fielder.

[Hate those Rodents]

I'd just use Crabbe and Rottino maybe if they have good springs.

[PrinceEatMeat]

I just found this article saying that the Giants would consider trading Matt Cain for Prince Fielder AND J.J. Hardy. http://www.sacbee.com/100/story/1248904.html

 

What do you guys think of this? I think that is too much to give up for Cain.

[jazzytrav]

I just heard this, too. I guess it depends on how ready Escobar is. This also would make Sheets and Sabathia easier to let go. This sort of thing couldn't happen until the season is over though, right?

[sbrylski]

I don't think we trade Hardy just yet.

 

But if we do, I'd be fine with this if we get Bumgarner too, and maybe a flyer like McClain for some depth.

[sbrylski]

A lingering rumor was given new life Wednesday night. ESPN's Peter Gammons said the Giants could trade starting pitcher Matt Cain, 23, to the Brewers for first baseman Prince Fielder, 24, shortstop J.J. Hardy, 26, and another player. He didn't cite his source.

 

Probably because it was just speculation.

[BrewCrewRising]

I think that way undervalues Fielder to be honest.

His current "bust" season boasts .272/.371/.873 with 32 bombs. He is a year removed from 50.

It also undervalues Hardy on the current market. He leads all NL SS in RBI's and is third in all the majors in OPS. There is supposedly a large demand for SS on the trade market this year.

These guys have a couple of years before FA. Though I like Cain, he's just not worth the both of them. What is more, Cain would be entering a rebuilding Brewers and so we'd really only find his best value a few years from now, IMHO.

[colbyjack]

Cain might be a little much for either one on their own, given the value placed on young pitching, but both Fielder and Hardy for Cain is crazy. Something of value would definitely need to come back to the Brewers (Nate Schierholtz?).

[yoshii8]

I would have a hard time giving up these two players for Lincecum and a prospect let alone Cain, and having to add another player to the deal, I don't think so. I could see one the these two players dealt for an arm like Cain, but I highly doubt we will give up both Fielder and Hardy this offseason.

[ILuvDaBush]

Hardy and Prince.....for Soria and Greinke...and DeJesus! Seriously, how many power-hitting, sure-handed defensive shortstops are going to be in the market this offseason? And how many 1B capable of 50HR seasons...well two if you include Howard, but that doesn't diminish what the asking price is going to approach. Cain for Prince would be overpaying for Cain. Hardy....and Prince....no thanks.

[paul253]

There is absolutely no way you give up those two AND another player for Cain. If you throw in, say, Madison Baumgartner then maybe, but you're trading at minimum 60 homeruns and about 150 RBI for a pitcher with a career losing record. One injury from Cain and you basically gave away a 50 homerun guy and a former all star who are both still young and relatively cheap for nothing. I get the sense that SF is severely overvaluing Cain. For how old that team is and how much good young pitching they have, I would think that'd be willing to trade one of them, but Fielder and Hardy is way too much.

[logan82]

Hardy and Fielder are the 2 I think the Brewers would most like to keep of our infield. That would just gut us. Considering we probably need to upgrade 3B that trade means we would have to find suitable replacements at 3 infield positions. I don't see Escobar as being ready yet.

[bklynbrewcrew]

This might be the dumbest rumor I have ever heard. No way are the Brewers trading a 40 HR guy and a top flight shortstop for a good but not great young pitcher. I wouldnt even make this deal for Lincecum much less cain.

[JohnBriggs12]

Well if the Giants threw in Winn, Bowker and a top prospect it might be worth thinking about. But no way do you give up both guys just for Cain.

[RockCoCougars]

Has anybody noticed how badly Cain has been pitching lately? I think that I would trade Hardy for him straight up, but I'd have to think long and hard about it. Fielder AND Hardy is insane.

[jackalope02ca]

Maybe Hardy straight up for Cain but unless they are talking Lincecum there is no way we do a deal like this. They would need to throw in a Schierholtz with Cain to even consider Fielder. And I'm a guy that thinks we overvalue our players on this board a lot. The Giants are way overvaluing their players in this deal. Maybe that's why they are so terrible.

[kramnoj]

Has anybody noticed how badly Cain has been pitching lately? I think that I would trade Hardy for him straight up, but I'd have to think long and hard about it. Fielder AND Hardy is insane.

 

What do you mean by lately? 3 out of his last 4 starts?

 

Cain has been an above average SP since he came in the league. He hasn't been a star, but he's provided 190+IP the last 3 years and above average ERA+. He's basically a # 2 pitcher in that regard.

 

I think one of the toughest decisions the Brewers will make this year is trying to determine Hardy's value, and trying to get appropriate value for him if they decide to trade him. Hardy has said that some of his success this season is because he has never really felt healthy until a couple months into this season. What do the Brewers take from that? Is Hardy a guy that is just susceptible to injuries, whether they be serious or nagging, and will find it hard to be healthy and productive for stretches of his career? Or has Hardy had some bad luck, he's finally found a training regimen that works for him and we can expect to see more of the 2008 Hardy going forward?

As far as the recent rumors, I just think Gammons mis-heard some information. He probably heard that the Brewers are targeting Cain, and then heard that the Brewers will explore trading Hardy, Fielder and prospects needed to get players for 2009. He took 1 and 1 and got to 3. There's no way Hardy and Fielder together would be traded for Cain. I do believe that the Brewers will explore trading both of them, but in separate deals as centerpieces.

 

 

[BrewCrewForever]

A Cain/Gallardo/Parra/Bush/Suppan rotation can contend in 09.

I totally agree with that. That is a rotation that could do some things. However if they want Hardy and Fielder for Cain, no way. Unless they will throw in Randy Winn and another prospect or two but even then it's pushing it. If it was Cain for Hardy straight up as much as I like Hardy we have Escobar ready and with Sheets and CC leaving we need pitching bad.

[mikedunham]

hardy is too valuable with the complete bust rickie weeks is. we need to move hardy or escobar to second or third to improve the defense, and then you keep their bats in the lineup also. fielder is just way too fat, and the weeks experiment needs to come to an end. good riddance to both, let them go suck for someone else.

[jackalope02ca]

The Giants could realy use 'Fielder but I don't see a place for Rickie on that team. Come to think of it I don't see a place for Rickie in Major League baseball other than as a pinch hitter. He's barely an adequate backup.

[nate82]

hardy is too valuable with the complete bust rickie weeks is. we need to move hardy or escobar to second or third to improve the defense, and then you keep their bats in the lineup also. fielder is just way too fat, and the weeks experiment needs to come to an end. good riddance to both, let them go suck for someone else.

Hmmm so where are we going to find a 35-40 HR guy like Fielder to replace him with? A lot of people forget Fielder is far more advanced than both Hardy and Braun at the plate. Prince has the patience and the understanding of taking what the pitcher gives him compared to Braun and Hardy.

 

Both Hardy and Braun are free swingers and will chase pitches regularly. Fielder is more advanced than both at taking pitches and going with what is given to him. Braun and Hardy not so much. Defensively Fielder is a liability that is a fact. I don't see Fielder being traded in the off season since his market value is lower than that of Hardy's and Escobar's. Not because of production or talent either. Hardy and Escobar are playing positions that are in high demand. I bet a team will blow the Brewers out of the water for Hardy or Escobar. More so for Hardy than Escobar though.

[smetana34]

really, so tell me, why do teams put a dramatic shift on Fielder when he bats? Geez, could it be because the guy doesnt take what the pitcher gives him, and go to opposite field? To say hes more advanced then Braun and Hardy is foolish. Those two use the other side of the field better then anybody on the team.

[TheCrew07]

Hmmm so where are we going to find a 35-40 HR guy like Fielder to replace him with? A lot of people forget Fielder is far more advanced than both Hardy and Braun at the plate. Prince has the patience and the understanding of taking what the pitcher gives him compared to Braun and Hardy.

If you're talking walks I'd agree he's more patient, otherwise there is no way he goes the other way as much as the other 2. I'll concede if a spray chart proves me wrong, but my gut feeling is that there's no way he's using more the field.

[uwisfan]

Amongst everyday starters, Prince, Rickie, and JJ are actually 1,2, and 3 in OBP. With the Brewers lacking in this area, and with expectations of dropping Rickie soon, it would seem improbable to give up on the top 3 OBP guys in one offseason. Obviously Escobar is going to give us something new, but I wouldnt deal both JJ and Prince for one player. Two high OBP sluggers who are young and recent allstars..doesnt make much sense to me. There are maybe 5 pitchers in the league you would consider that deal for, and Cain wouldnt be one of them.

 

Try getting a fair shake for JJ in the offseason. If nothing happens, start the season and keep negotiating. Let Escobar play in AAA to start or maybe shift him to 2nd (obviously a wast of his talent) if JJ won't move (until u can deal JJ). Prince's trade value is kind of at a low this year. I'd put all my energy into getting him to stay in shape so he can build up his trade value next year. I'd be hesitant to dump a 50 HR/ 380 OBP lefty without good return, but he's eating away his trade value. Gamel is still unproven and his second half disappearing act makes me a bit nervous.

[nate82]

really, so tell me, why do teams put a dramatic shift on Fielder when he bats? Geez, could it be because the guy doesnt take what the pitcher gives him, and go to opposite field? To say hes more advanced then Braun and Hardy is foolish. Those two use the other side of the field better then anybody on the team.

Hardy's hit chart.

 

Fielder's hit chart

 

Braun's hit chart

 

The answer to your question why Fielder has a shift. That is an easy question to answer it is because he bats left handed. Nearly every single left handed hitter has an infield shift like that. Most of the balls hit by a left handed batter go to the right side of the infield when they hit a ground ball. If you want proof of this look at Berkman, Ortiz, and Howard. They all have the same pattern as Fielder has. Nearly all left handed batters have the same pattern for outs to the right side of the infield and that is why teams shift to the right when playing these hitters.

 

This year Braun has actually improved at hitting to the opposite field but he still doesn't walk as much as Prince does and as you can see Hardy has the majority of his outs to the left side of the infield. The reason I used Miller Park for the stat is because that is where they have played the majority of their games at and thus get more opportunities to show a pattern.