Hardy for Matt Cain?; Latest -- Gammons reports Hardy AND Fielder for Cain? (reply #52)

[leadheadned]

Trade the guy whose production is way down and shows no interest in remaining here long term. Any guesses on who that is?http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/mad.gif

 

 

[ILuvDaBush]

Eric Gagne? He's a free agent at the end of the year, and I doubt anyone would want to take him in a trade.

[Tbadder]

Cain would be great, but methinks it would take more than just Hardy. I'm guessing a major prospect as well.

[brewmann04]

how about Prince and Hall for Overbay and Roy H

[paul253]

Would Fielder bring back more than just Cain? Maybe Fielder for Cain and a prospect. SF needs offense so Fielder would look great at first there, and we desperately need a starting pitcher. This would make the lossess of Sheets and Sabathia more managable, plus there'd be a ton of money free'd up with Gagne and Sheets off the book, as well as Counsell, Mota and Turnbow. It would allow us not only to pickup the option on Cain, but we could get a few more bullpen arms on top of Torres, McClung, Stetter, Dillard, Villanueva and Riske. We could get a good utility guy, someone in the Derosa variey who can actually hit. This would also involve moving Gamel to first and letting him start, which is very risky considering he's never played first and he struggled the last 2 months of the season. But, i think something drastic will have to be done to compete next year without Sheets or Sabathia, because I dont think Gallardo and Parra are going to cut it at 1-2, at least not next year.

[And That]

Maybe Fielder for Cain and a prospect.

I look at it the other way around... shouldn't we be offering Fielder and some other things for Lincecum? Fielder has a ton of value, I think more than Cain and a prospect would represent. If I'm trading Fielder this offseason (which I don't think I would, given his power outage), I'd offer Fielder and Hart for Lincecum, Winn, and a pitching prospect or Brian Wilson.

[BrewCrewRising]

Maybe Fielder for Cain and a prospect.

I look at it the other way around... shouldn't we be offering Fielder and some other things for Lincecum? Fielder has a ton of value, I think more than Cain and a prospect would represent. If I'm trading Fielder this offseason (which I don't think I would, given his power outage), I'd offer Fielder and Hart for Lincecum, Winn, and a pitching prospect or Brian Wilson.

 

I'd love Lincecum. He and Gallardo coupled together as a 1-2 punch would be awesome. But I think your proposal would be an overpay. Winn has been good, but his OPS is just a click under .800 this year, and he's old and getting older. Corey still has a lot of value and is starting to turn heads beyond the borders of Brewers Nation, and like you said, Fielder has a ton of value. Fielder may be having a power outage, but a power hitter is a better gamble than an elite pitcher unless you just know that pitcher will never be injured. And you can just never know that. So, IMHO, that would be a dear price to pay to get Lincecum.

[Tbadder]

But, i think something drastic will have to be done to compete next year without Sheets or Sabathia, because I dont think Gallardo and Parra are going to cut it at 1-2, at least not next year.

 

I think this is very astute. Parra has not proved that he could be a #3 starter. I believe he's more of a #4. He could develop, but at this point with his age and injury history I doubt he actually reaches anything higher than a #3. If i was melvin I wouldn't count on him being anything other than what he is right now. I don't think there are any moves short of signing CC that will makes us competitive next year. Houston, St.Louis, and Chicago will improve, we can only digress. Not that we wouldn't be entertaining, just more like a 75-80 win team with a load of young talent ready to hit the Bigs. that's pretty exciting.

[paul253]

A big problem I see is that not only are we probably going to lose our top two pitchers, but that cupboard for pitchers in the minor leagues is basically empty. You have Jeffress who has the potential to be a #1, but he has been wildly inconsistant and will start the year at Huntsville. Below him there is really nothing that will be ready for at least 2 or 3 years. Thats why getting a guy like Cain or Lincecum will be necessary. I still think you need to bite the bullett and give Sheets whatever he wants. The contracts we have expiring in the next few years (Kendall, Cameron, Suppan), plus the likely trades of at least 2 of Hart, Weeks, Hardy, and Fielder will give you some room for error. With 3 million in attendance and very good tv ratings you'd think the payroll would jump quite a bit.

I still think SF is the ideal partner. With what about Fielder for Cain and Baumgardner (sp?)? We could throw in a guy like Gillespie or Irabarren if necessary.

[danzig6767]

Maybe Fielder for Cain and a prospect.

I look at it the other way around... shouldn't we be offering Fielder and some other things for Lincecum? Fielder has a ton of value, I think more than Cain and a prospect would represent.

With his terrible defense, Prince has to really rake at the plate to be a big time asset. Cain is a 24 year old power arm starting pitcher with a 3.72 career ERA in roughly three big league seasons.

 

If i'm a GM and had a choice of either player, it would be hard for me the pass on Cain, especially a NL team given Prince's defense and weight issues.

[mothershipconnection]

A big problem I see is that not only are we probably going to lose our top two pitchers

 

I hope we can look back on this in a year and say we only lost #1 and #3. If Yo comes back guns a-blazin' our rotation next year is really no worse than it was from the day after his injury through the day before the CC trade. If that happens and we can upgrade from Gagne while Riske improves to a reasonable 3.60 ERA, our pitching actually isn't that bad.

[jjfanec]

If we can trade one of our infielders for a number 2 guy then I am feeling better going into next year. Gallardo, young number 2 type guy like a Matt Cain, Parra, Suppan, and Bush is not a terrible rotation and the three front end guys could be with us a while. And they would be cheap.

I dont agree about the Cubs being better for sure next year. Zambrano is showing signs of wearing down, Harden is a huge question mark in terms of health, they will have to use a lot of their free agency money to keep Dempster who is coming off a career year (not always the best signings), after that they have Lilly and Marquis. The Cardinals will be ready with a full year of a healthy Carpenter and Wainwright, although Lohse may be gone.

If we can get a young arm in the mix our top three could be alright next year and very good the next couple years, which would leave in a good spot in the division

[Roscoe Chill]

What if the Cubs sign Sabathia?

[jjfanec]

What if the Cubs sign Sabathia?

The Cubs could do that obviously but I dont think they will spend that kind of money. It will cost good money to lock up Dempster and all indications are that they will do that. I think Wood is a free agent as well, so it will cost them a fair amount to resign their own.

[DuWayne Steurer]

As much as I'd love to see Cain, I'm really not interested in seeing Hardy go. He's hitting his prime, and I'm not sold that Escobar is read to go just yet. The guy had a pretty abysmal walk rate this year, and OBP is where our offene struggles. JJ's got the 3rd highest OPS, and 2nd highest OBP among our starters, to go along with a fine glove (albeit with limited range).

 

To go along with Brian's comment, I'm sure the biggest reason that JJ doesn't want to move to 3B is becaue an .850 OPS ss makes more money than an .850 OPS 3rd baseman.

 

Another thing to consider is that this team is really unsettled on the infield. Weeks and Hall are really unknown quantities going forward, and there's the possibility that the team will want to move Fielder as early as this off-season.

 

Another starter is absolutely a need, but giving up JJ right now just doesn't feel like the right move.

[Gobias Industries]

Originally I was for this deal, but now I'd almost rather trade Hart than Hardy. Hardy's been very good this year, and has the ability to be a pretty good OBP guy for the next few years. I think the Giants would LOVE to have Hart roaming RF.

 

In a perfect world, the Brewers could trade Bill Hall and move Hardy to 3rd and start Escobar at SS. But who in their right mind would want Bill Hall with his contract? He's been trending in the wrong direction for 2 full years now.

 

Either Weeks or Hall is almost assured to get traded this offseason, and only one of them has any sort of value.

[endaround]

I'd say its highly unlikely either is traded this off season. Hall due to the Brewers having to eat part of his contract are probably better keeping him then paying part of his contract and paying a utility guy. And Weeks because finding a 2B option isn't that easy especially at the low price Weeks is at. Hudson should already have a condo in NY picked out and after that its hoping the Orioles aren't asking for the moon for Roberts which they likely are.

[Gobias Industries]

I guess I could see them hanging on to both. Like you say, they'd definitely have to eat some of Bill's salary, and Weeks value is at its all time low (still a useful trading chip to a rebuilding team). So it's definitely not the most ideal time for a trade.

 

But I do expect them to sign a Loretta type to take over for Counsell, and if Escobar plays his way on to the team in September/Spring Training, it will be quite a logjam in the infield.

[piccione88]

Lincecum, and Cain are pretty much untouchable, so the brewers would have to add some other nice peices in order to get cain for Hardy. One starter from the Giants that interests me is Jonathan Sanchez. San Fransisco finally gave him a defined role this year, and he has looked very good as a full time starter. Sanchez strikes out almost 1 batter per inning, and does not give up alot of homeruns despite not having a great groundball rate. Sanchez is a legitamite #3 starter and if he improves his control he could be a top of the rotation guy.

 

The giants as everyone knows are desperate for offense, and if Lowry comes back okay they will have room to move sanchez. I think getting Sanchez, and Brian Wilson for Hardy, Pena, and someone like Nelson who could help them offensivley right away would be a good deal for both teams. Our rotation would not be what it is this year, but it would be good and if Sanchez, Gallardo, and Parra all play up to their potential we would have a formidable rotation, without having to give up any of our top prospects, and have Fielder for another year.

[PepsiFanClubAlum]

I am hearing Hardy to second for next year. Makes nothing but sense to me.

[Hate those Rodents]

Casper, do you mean from someone in the know? As much as I'd hate selling low on Weeks, I'd be ecstatic if A) Hardy were willing to move to 2nd and B) To get Escobar in at SS in what should be another youth movement (though still competitive and potentially playoff bound) type season.

[paul253]

If thats the case we'd have to either put Escobar at leadoff, which might be kind of risky, or we'd have to trade for a leadoff hitter. I'm not sure where we could add one, unless we dump Cameron and the leadoff hitter plays center. I wouldnt mind letting Cameron go. He had that hot month or so, but has really come back down to his career norms lately. He strikes out way too much in a lineup that already strikes out enough. We need someone who can put the ball in play and who can be a real leadoff hitter. Plus that $10 million could go a long way in shoring up the rotation.

[kramnoj]

I think the quest for getting a leadoff hitter can often lead to poor decisions. If you have someone who can embody what you want in a leadoff hitter, that's great. But a team shouldn't find a poor leadoff hitter just to have someone that is a "leadoff hitter". For the Brewers, if you have a decent OBP and you aren't slow, you could leadoff. Your goal is to get on base and be able to score when Braun and/or Fielder hits. You don't want to put someone who is fast and can steal bases but has a poor OBP.

 

I'm not sure where we could add one, unless we dump Cameron and the leadoff hitter plays center.

 

Cameron could leadoff. In his career he's played a season's worth of games leading off and has a .813 OPS

[Hate those Rodents]

Sadly, or not sadly depending on your opinion, Yost would not even have an inkling to ever consider Cameron in the leadoff role. It is so far from a possibility to him that I am certain it is not any type of option.

[JohnBriggs12]

I don't see them signing a "Mark Loretta type" to fill Counsell's role if by "Mark Loretta type, you mean one time starter with some name value that will cost a fair bit.

 

They will try to get by more with a "Chris Woodward type" who can do that role for near minimum.