What do we do with the outfield next year?

[endaround]

9 million does not buy a star player, for 9 million you hope to get a solid starter. Cameron is much better than that.

[Postseason2006]

I see the hack Cameron gets another free pass? Can people not see how much better Shane Victorino is compared to Mike? How many K's did the guy have today?

 

And then his pathetic play to start the DH? The guy's arm stinks.

[logan82]

Victorino 282/345/427/772

Cameron 246/335/505/840

I think I will stick with Cameron. Add that we are not likely to get a player better than Cameron and I don't think there is much to discuss.

[pebadger]

Cameron should be gone. Even without performance issues, I'd prefer to keep getting younger/evaluating talent.

 

I'd start to explore trades for Hart, though he starts the year somewhere out there unless there is a really good trade to be made in the offseason. I don't think he wants to be in Milwaukee long term, and he may be able to bring back some value at the deadline, especially if he starts off well next season.

 

The left field spot is obviously locked up for the forseeable future.

 

At this point I don't really care who plays out there. Looks like that issue can start being addressed on October 1.

[Postseason2006]

Victorino 282/345/427/772

Cameron 246/335/505/840

I think I will stick with Cameron. Add that we are not likely to get a player better than Cameron and I don't think there is much to discuss.

Then make sure you add KKKKKKKKKKKKKameron's multitude of SO's. Again, the Brewers SO way too much and adding another bat with a hole in a it was dumb.

[kramnoj]

Cameron should be gone. Even without performance issues, I'd prefer to keep getting younger/evaluating talent.

 

It's easy to say that without looking at who is available. Who would you like in CF next year for the Brewers?

 

Again, the Brewers SO way too much and adding another bat with a hole in a it was dumb.

 

The Brewers problem isn't that they K too much. It is that right now they aren't getting on base as a team. If there's nobody on base when you come to bat, getting a K isn't really any worse than any other out (it might even be better, considering it will take a minimum of 3 pitches to get a K).

[Oldcity]

Postseason, I have to say I'm dumbfounded by your blind hatred of Mike Cameron. He is the best defensive center fielder the Brewers have had in years (maybe ever), and he is well above average offensively. Why not focus on Hart or Hall or someone who is actually having a bad year?

[1992casey]

Pass me some of that Kool-Aid.

 

That totally crosses the condescension line.

 

Postseason2006, if you can't post anything other than daily suckiness updates, leave this thread alone. Otherwise, one of the mods will need to issue a strike.

[ELCABALLO45]

Unless someone blows us away with a offer for Hart...

 

I love this outfield for 09.

[PeaveyFury]

How many K's did the guy have today?

 

A whopping two, leaving no runners on base in the process. He also had a HR today, if you missed that.

[RU Rah Rah]

Pass me some of that Kool-Aid.

Just as a total side note, I had to explain this reference to my American religion class this week.

[bklynbrewcrew]

Cameron is the least of the Brewers problems and is actually one of the only players on the team having a productive season. It is also a pleasure to watch a gold glove caliber CF for once. The outfielder to worry about is Corey Hart. His OBP is terrible and he has been awful lately. Braun has also been terrible lately but I suspect that he is injured.

[JohnBriggs12]

Even if Cameron goes back to hitting at his career average, he's worth $10 mil on the open market. That doesn't necessarily mean he's worth $ 10 mil to The Brewers but considering the options, I think so.

 

And JB, do you bring up his strikeout rate because of what you think it suggests about his future offensive prospects or because you think it significantly devalues his offensive performance this year. The former would be understandable while the later is just plain wrong.

In the context of playing on a team full of strikeout guys (and this is the key point), it does devalue him russ and he's not worth $10 million on the open market. $7 million tops. But he's worth less than that to a Brewer team because the Brewers need to balance off Hart, Hardy, Braun, Hall and Weeks, with as Melvin said early last offseason a "professional lefthanded bat". He finally got one close to that in Durham (who's held up while the team collapses around him), but he needs one to play OF. Now if they were to deal Hart for a similar type who bats lefthanded, fine bring Cameron back. But as the team is currently constituted, they'd be better off getting either a corner OF lefthanded bat and moving Hart or finding a speed, contact guy to play CF.

[recte44]

The Brewers need more players who can put the ball into play. Too many strikeout guys on the team lead to our streaky behavior. Sure, Cameron's numbers look good overall but those were in bunches.

 

Hall is the same way, so is Weeks.

 

They need to make some wholesale changes with their lineup construction next season.

[bjkrautk]

Cameron is the least of the Brewers problems and is actually one of the only players on the team having a productive season. It is also a pleasure to watch a gold glove caliber CF for once. The outfielder to worry about is Corey Hart. His OBP is terrible and he has been awful lately. Braun has also been terrible lately but I suspect that he is injured.

Hart's OPS has dropped 100 points from last season's totals, and are more in-line with his part-time season of 2 years ago. Most of the fall-off has been OBP, mirroring the problems of the rest of the team. Hart in 2008 = Geoff Jenkins in 2007, and most people thought he was a big part of the problem then. He's one of the most disappointing guys on the team in the second half.

[TooLiveBrew]

In the context of playing on a team full of strikeout guys (and this is the key point), it does devalue him russ and he's not worth $10 million on the open market. $7 million tops. But he's worth less than that to a Brewer team because the Brewers need to balance off Hart, Hardy, Braun, Hall and Weeks, with as Melvin said early last offseason a "professional lefthanded bat".

 

Getting rid of Cameron, who is actually worth likely at least $10M on the open market, is just counterproductive to winning. The key point is his production, not your unchangeable (no matter the evidence) distaste for strikeouts. Of MLB CF with at least 450 PA, Cameron ranks 7th in OPS. Here are the '08 salaries for the guys ahead of him --

 

Josh Hamilton (TEX): Pre-arby

Curtis Granderson (DET): $1M (first season of Ryan Braun-type deal... bought out FA seasons by paying for arby & pre-arby seasons)

Grady Sizemore (CLE): $3M (third season of Ryan Braun-type deal... see above)

Nate McLouth (PIT): Pre-arby

Carlos Beltran (NYM): $18.5M

Rick Ankiel (STL): $900K (first arbitration season; signed 1-yr. deal to avoid arbitration)

 

Then, let's look at some dudes that are past arbitrations seasons below, Cameron in terms of OPS (450 PA or more) --

 

Torii Hunter (LAA): $16M

Aaron Rowand (SF): $8M

 

 

The rest of MLB CF that have enough PA to qualify here are young guys that are pre-arby, arby, or on Braun-type deals. Of course there's Andruw Jones ($9M), who'd be on the list below Cam if he hadn't missed time due to injury, and Juan Pierre ($8M), who is... bad. $10M is a perfectly accurate guesstimate for what Cameron could get as a FA.

 

 

But as the team is currently constituted, they'd be better off getting either a corner OF lefthanded bat and moving Hart or finding a speed, contact guy to play CF.

 

Thinking like this is why Juan Pierre got a $44M contract. Scary.

[rluzinski]

So, we might replace Cameron with someone who get's on base less and hits for less power but if he strikes out less, the team might score more runs? A balanced attack makes all the sense in the world in the NFL but almost none in baseball. If you think the 600th K is more costly to run production than the 599th, I'd like you to explain why, instead of just stating it as fact.

 

I'm scared as heck when Kendall, Counsell or Hardy come up with a guy on 1st and 1 out. Maybe the Brewers need to reduce those pesky ball-in-play outs, so they can cut down on that double play rate..

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

I think Cole Gillespie could be replacing Hart at some point. Maybe not next year, but probably in 2010 if he puts together a good year in Nashville next year.

[JohnBriggs12]

Cameron is the least of the Brewers problems and is actually one of the only players on the team having a productive season. It is also a pleasure to watch a gold glove caliber CF for once. The outfielder to worry about is Corey Hart. His OBP is terrible and he has been awful lately. Braun has also been terrible lately but I suspect that he is injured.

Cameron has been worse than awful lately bklynbrew crew. 8 for 68 with 29 K's this month, a .200 OBP and .191 slugging. He's showing his age. Hart's always been streaky. It's magnified now, but that's who he's been since he came up. For all his flaws though Hart's still been more productive than Cameron, won't cost $10 million next year and could still improve as a hitter.

[paul253]

A balanced attack makes all the sense in the world in the NFL but almost none in baseball

 

I don't buy this, and i think the evidence is a) the recent slide in which everyone was struggling. You have to have more than one kind of hitter on a team b) the Chicago Cubs....they dont hit as many HR's as Milwaukee, but their hitters are just plain better. Guys like Theriot and Derosa, while certianly no allstars, will advance the runner to third with 1 out, something not one player on our team can do on a consistant basis. Most of our hitters....Braun, Fielder, Hardy, Weeks, Hart, Cameron....all swing as hard as they can and try to pull everything. That doesnt work on a consistant basis.

 

I'm scared as heck when Kendall, Counsell or Hardy come up with a guy on 1st and 1 out

 

Similarly, I get just as scared when theres a guy on third with one out and Cameron comes up. Or when theres someone on second with nobody out and Hardy or Braun or Weeks comes up. The lack of small ball has killed this team in the last month.

 

Paying $10 million for a guy that is the exact same hitter as 4 other guys just doesnt make sense to me. That money needs to be spent elsewhere. I would almost rather see Brantly in center next year than Cameron.

[JohnBriggs12]

"I would almost rather see Brantley in center next year."

 

Absolutely. Even throw Weeks out there, Hardy to 2B and Escobar to SS makes more sense than pretending a lineup with a bunch of guys who are virtually the same hitter is going to be productive. All that does is make it easy for the opposing pitcher. He doesn't have to adjust his approach. That's assuming Cameron at 36 isn't completely done which is a huge assumption.

[bklynbrewcrew]

Yes Cameron has been absolutely terrible this month and only a dope like Sveum would bat him leadoff but Cameron is a very streaky hitter. We may or may not be able to upgrade from him offensively but he has been great defensively on a team full of terrible defensive players. I would probably bring him back next year on his defense alone.

[jhpc12]

I think that the outfield is the least of or problems. Corey is going to be between a .330 - .350 OBP type of player. He is going to hit between .275 -.300. Be won of the top XBH year in and year out. Drive in close to a 100 runs per year. Still steal 20+ bases a year. And he is cheap, wants to stay in Milwaukee, and even thou he spoke his mind is difinitly a fan favored.

 

His OBP has dropped in September as has everyone on the team with exception of Fielder. Corey generally has one bad month, ususally it is early in the year it just so happens to be Sept. this year. However Brauny & Cameron or definitly not lighting it up either.

 

If it's me we look for a left handed lead off type batter with speed and put him in center field.

[bjkrautk]

Cameron has been worse than awful lately bklynbrew crew. 8 for 68 with 29 K's this month, a .200 OBP and .191 slugging. He's showing his age. Hart's always been streaky. It's magnified now, but that's who he's been since he came up. For all his flaws though Hart's still been more productive than Cameron, won't cost $10 million next year and could still improve as a hitter.

I don't know how you're justifying "more productive" based on this year's numbers.

 

Hart, 2008 -- .272 / .306 / .470 / .776 OPS (591 AB, 45 2b, 20 HR, 278 TB, 27 BB: 102 K)

Cameron '08 -- .238 / .326 / .480 / .806 OPS (421 AB, 23 2b, 25 HR, 202 TB, 51 BB: 137 K)

 

Also, Hart's .483 OPS isn't exactly lighting up September either. Is Corey a lost cause? Of course not. But at the same time, his OPS is down more than 100 points from last season, and he's taking even fewer walks now than he did last year (which would have been cause for more concern if his .295 batting average didn't lift his OBP into the .350s).

If the Brewers don't give serious consideration to finding a quality backup / replacement for Hart in the off-season, it's cause for concern. Hart's drop off is eerily similar to Bill Hall from '06 to '07 (without the position shifts to blame it on), and that didn't end well. Cameron's play should be at least average next season, so I don't see him as the main problem.

[paul253]

Not to mention that $10 million will go a long way to resigning Sheets or getting a couple of bullpen arms. I'm just worried about giving a fulltime position to someone whose never been above AA, but Brantley's eye for the strikezone might help him a bit more. Its too bad Brantley Escobar and Gillespie arent a year more developed because they sure could fill some holes next season.