What do we do next season? Durham or Weeks?

[GamelToe]

Rickie. I'd rather have a younger player with a lot of upside than an old player with a lot of downside.

[Bucky Rules]

The reason it is ignored so much as it only tells the story about his offense. And if you only want "average hitting" for half a season, then I guess keep pimping those "since June" stats.

AMEN Brother! I hate those "since then" stats....

 

Pretty much everything that we use on a regular basis to review MLB stats is a "since then" stat. The only exception are career numbers which include everything the guy has done. It's perfectly valid to use "since xxx" assuming a reasonable number of ABs. If you really want to eliminate the "since xxx" numbers, then ignore the since April 1st numbers as well.

[Ennder]

Hardy is an average at best SS. Escobar is great. I just see no way they are in Milwaukee starting at the same time. You don't move Hardy, you trade him for an offensively similar (or projected to be similar) 3B or 2B. Moving Hardy reduces his value for very little reason except just to keep him in Milwaukee.

Escobar is going to be the next Adam Everett IMO, well below replacement level offensively but amazing defensively. That is fine with me but not sure it is more valuable than Hardy who is average defensively and slightly above average offensively.

[endaround]

Not sure either. But then I'd trade Escobar if that's the way it falls-money will of course have a large impact here. I just really see no reason to have both Escobar and Hardy starting in Milwaukee at the same time. Square pegs, round holes, etc.

[dadofandrew]

Hardy's weakness, his lack of range, can be easily hidden by playing 3B or 2B. That seems like a win-win to me. JJ might be hesitant, but a long-term extension would minimize that. I like him at 2B, because his offense works better there, while at 3B, he'd just be mediocre.

 

At some point, Alcides is going to be the SS in MIL, barring injury. Not only is his defense off-the-charts, his offense has come around this year, and he looks to be far from a punchless SS. Guys who lead their AA league in hitting at 21 do not grow up to be Adam Everett.

[PeaveyFury]

At some point, Alcides is going to be the SS in MIL, barring injury.

 

Or trade. I think with the rotation situation likely to be strained a bit next year, it seems quite possible if not likely that we see Hardy extended and Escobar dealt for a Cain-type this offseason.

[dadofandrew]

Prospects are very rarely traded, and young SP's are dealt even less. A Garza/Young swap was unheard of until it was done, and I don't see another one taking place.

 

Tough to turn down 3 cheap years and 6 years of service with Escobar. He's the guy, it would seem, we just do not when the era begins.

[sveumrules]

At some point, Alcides is going to be the SS in MIL, barring injury.

 

Or trade. I think with the rotation situation likely to be strained a bit next year, it seems quite possible if not likely that we see Hardy extended and Escobar dealt for a Cain-type this offseason.

 

my instinct would be that hardy gets traded and escobar becomes the ss in milwaukee. i don't think this will happen until the offseason between 09/10, however. the reasoning being that hardy is a somewhat proven mlb commodity, so even though he will be more expensive salarywise to the acquiring team, it would seem that he would have a higher trade value. after the 09 season he will still have two years of arby as well which is pretty much the ideal spot to trade a guy. i have a feeling that with the youth (brantey/escobar) and defensive work needed (gamel/salome) that the next wave will be spending almost the entire 09 campaign in nashville, barring catastrophic injury to a starter

[dadofandrew]

JJ's a FA after '10, so he has only two years of arby left now.

[dvoiss]

Hardy's weakness, his lack of range, can be easily hidden by playing 3B or 2B. That seems like a win-win to me. JJ might be hesitant, but a long-term extension would minimize that. I like him at 2B, because his offense works better there, while at 3B, he'd just be mediocre.

I guess I just don't see JJ accepting a move to second. In fact the suggestion might preclude him from signing long term. How would you feel as an established major league SS if asked to move for some kid at AA? I would prefer to keep him in Milwaukee and deal Escobar if thats the case. I'm not ready to pin the teams future on a AA shortstop with little power when we have an established ML shortstop who has legitimate 20 HR power even if he tends to be a little streaky. Especially when Hardy's defense hasn't really hurt us all that much. The gain we make defensively would be lost at the plate. I would like to see an offer made to JJ this winter to lock him up long term

[nate82]

Hardy's weakness, his lack of range, can be easily hidden by playing 3B or 2B. That seems like a win-win to me. JJ might be hesitant, but a long-term extension would minimize that. I like him at 2B, because his offense works better there, while at 3B, he'd just be mediocre.

At 2B you can't hide Hardy's lack of range when you have Fielder at 1B. If you are going to hide Hardy's range then it will have to be at 3B and not 2B if Prince is still around when Hardy is playing 2B. A lot of seeing eye singles would happen if you have Hardy and Prince at 1st and 2nd.

 

I don't see Hardy being a good 2B defensively at all and I don't see Hardy wanting to move over to 2B either. If you think the Hall I want to be traded thing was bad that would be nothing compared to what the Hardy moving over to 2B would be like. Think more along the lines of Sheffield not wanting to be here and comitting errors kind of disaster. That is what having Hardy moving over to 2B would be like. There is no way Hardy would want to or would move over to 2B when he will make 3 times the amount at SS than he would at 2B.

 

In short Hardy is not going to or ever will be moving over to 2B.

[dadofandrew]

An average SS is a very good 2B. The position allows them to play much deeper, as their throw is much shorter. Many 2B's; Freddie Sanchez, Mark Loretta, Ronnie Belliard, and many more, are very good defensive 2B, but are very poor SS options.

 

The Prince issue is often brought up, but fails to pass the sniff test. Weeks will never be as good as JJ defensively, and no one notices ground ball after ground ball sneaking through now. I'd say JJ could easily be a top 2B both offensively and defensively.

[Darnell Junior]

SS is no doubt a harder position than 2B, so people assume Hardy would transition well. However, Hardy's on the short end of the stick as far as range goes for SS, and he's got an upper-tier arm. Playing 2B de-emphasizes the importance of a strong arm and stresses good range. Moving JJ to 2nd would be playing to his weaknesses. Whoever made the point of playing on the same side as Fielder is dead on. Assuming he's about average defensively right now, he woud still be about average at 2B. Lack of range and a great arm sound a lot like a gold glove third baseman, though. I'm all for him moving over to 3rd. He's in the top 10 offensively for shortstops even in this renaissance of sorts of the position. His stick is good enough to play over there, assuming he doesn't regress.

 

As far as Alcides goes, he will not be moved. When he's in the Majors he will be getting 100% of his time at SS. You don't hear comparisons to Everett and Ozzie and move that guy to 2B. I see him scuffling pretty bad with the stick his first couple years but you can deal with that with top-notch defense.

[nate82]

An average SS is a very good 2B. The position allows them to play much deeper, as their throw is much shorter. Many 2B's; Freddie Sanchez, Mark Loretta, Ronnie Belliard, and many more, are very good defensive 2B, but are very poor SS options.

 

The Prince issue is often brought up, but fails to pass the sniff test. Weeks will never be as good as JJ defensively, and no one notices ground ball after ground ball sneaking through now. I'd say JJ could easily be a top 2B both offensively and defensively.

I'm sorry but JJ and Prince near each other is just not a good idea. Plus if you move JJ to 2B you are losing his arm. There are not that many situations where a 2B needs to use their arm that is why players who have a good arm get moved from 2B to SS. You need a good arm at SS and 3B. JJ would be better defensively at 3B than he would be at 2B.

 

Weeks gets to balls that JJ wouldn't even be able to get half way to. JJ just doesn't have the range that you need to have with a 1B like Prince. Weeks gets to a lot of balls that are out of the range of your average 2B. Plus Weeks defensively has been improving every year. You can't say Weeks will get worse next year when every year he has been getting better at playing 2B. I will bet that Hardy would have a harder time than Weeks does at 2B.

 

Other than Hardy's arm he is an average SS at best. He doesn't have much range at SS and he would have even less range at 2B. Putting JJ at 2B is a very bad idea. JJ should only be considered to play 2 positions and those positions are SS and 3B.

[logan82]

How much deeper can a 2B play than a SS? They both have to stay close enough to 2B to make plays there.

[dadofandrew]

With a runner on 1B, they play in DP position, much closer to the bag and a couple steps shallower. With no one on, they often play on the OF grass, or close to it.

[logan82]

With a runner on 1B, they play in DP position, much closer to the bag and a couple steps shallower. With no one on, they often play on the OF grass, or close to it.

He can do the same at SS and he still has poor range. I just see no difference between the 2 positions than a shorter throw to 1B.

[Never Outhustled]

There is no way Hardy would want to or would move over to 2B when he will make 3 times the amount at SS than he would at 2B.

SS's make 3 times as much as 2Bs that can play SS? I think you've made a gross exageration. If Hardy was on the open market, he'd be paid according to where the highest bidding was signing him to play. In arbitration, he'd be paid for the position he played, not the position he's about to play. Also, even if Hardy was moved to 2B, he'd be the back-up SS and get starts there. That would free the Brewers roster from having to carry a backup SS, and those guys rarely can hit.

[uwisfan]

I dont think its fair yet to say Escobar's offense will be one of the worst in the majors. If you take out the best 5 offensive shortstops in the game, the rest of the starters are pretty weak offensively. I think Escobar could lead that pack offensively even. His numbers this year have been pretty outstanding for his age and level.

[Never Outhustled]

Escobar is going to be the next Adam Everett IMO, well below replacement level offensively but amazing defensively.

Escobar is slightly better than Hardy was at AA, and has more natural ability. i don't know why you'd suggest he'd struggle offensively.

 

Other than Hardy's arm he is an average SS at best. He doesn't have much range at SS and he would have even less range at 2B

Hardy would have very good range for a 2B. He would convert outs in the same rate, but now his ability to do that would be compared to the inferior defenders that play 2B. Hardy converts outs because he has soft hands and gets throws off quickly. If all the players who played SS moved to 2B, the expected range factor at 2B would increase dramtically.

 

Weeks gets to balls that JJ wouldn't even be able to get half way to.

If Weeks had better range than Hardy, he'd play SS, but he doesn't.Its not the balls you can get to, its the balls you get to an actually convert into outs. Weeks rarely has his body in position to make throws, because he fights the ball fielding it. he's improving, but is still a tick below average as a 2B.

[TooLiveBrew]

Durham injures shoulder:

 

Not sure if this is common knowledge or not, but I saw this at Yahoo sports:

 

 

"ST. LOUIS (TICKER) -Milwaukee Brewers second baseman Ray Durham left Tuesday's 12-0 victory over the St. Louis Cardinals in the seventh inning with a right shoulder strain.

He is considered day-to-day.

Durham, who was 1-for-3 with two runs scored in the game and is batting .285 this season, was replaced by Rickie Weeks."

It's too bad this happened... in a regular spot-start for Ray, no less. I hope this is neither serious nor nagging. Fortunately, Rickie has been playing quite well in the second half, and especially August (.380/.400/.780 on the month).

[lcbj68c]

Gosh I sure hope Durham doesnt miss any starts against RHP. Even Bill Hall managed a hit tonight.

[bjkrautk]

Since I haven't chimed in yet, Weeks is still hanging on to a top-10 spot among qualified 2b in terms of OBP (tied for 13th in OPS), for what would be the second season in a row. Considering the way this club is built, with the 2b being the de-facto leadoff guy (unless there's a leadoff 3b out there in the off-season), that means there are only a handful of guys outproducing him....and even fewer that would be available in the off-season. The players that would be available have all likely plateaued based on their ages. I don't see an outside option worth the pay increase over Weeks right now. His defense has actually improved quite a bit by the numbers.

 

That said, Alcides Escobar is the wild card. If Escobar is really the can't miss type player that most here think he's going to be, I don't see why he couldn't be just as good at 2b or 3b than at SS; 3b is a pretty easy upgrade over the platoon.

[dadofandrew]

Ben, you don't move great defensive SS's to 2B. The Crew won't, I cannot believe.

[1992casey]

Trenni talked about the Durham 'day to day' thing during the game.