Is Ned Dusty-ing our Pitchers?

[BrewCrewRising]

I was a bit alarmed tonight by Yost leaving Sabathia in tonight when he had already thrown 110 pitches after 8 innings and had a 7 run lead.

 

According to Baseball Prospectus Sabathia and Sheets are 2 and 7 respectively in Pitcher Abuse Points. I have to confess I had never heard that stat before. I looked up the explanation and found that essentially if a pitcher throws over 105 pitches in a game, he's generally less effective in his next outing.

 

Obviously Sabathia and Sheets have been pretty decent (although they've had rough outings), but could this have implications on the post season?

[AJAY]

I was at the game, and I was more angry about the pitch count than I was excited about the victory. I am extremely concerned about Ned Yost's abuse of Sabathia. I know some people think that it doesn't matter because Sabathia will be gone as a free agent anyway. I personally would hate to see him become ineffective later this season because of overwork in meaningless innings in blowout wins. I also don't want the Brewers organization getting a bad reputation for abusing starters. No free agent would want to come here if Ned had the reputation of being someone like Dusty Baker.

 

What happened tonight was disturbing and appalling.

 

Completely unacceptable.

[dadofandrew]

PAP is a lot flawed, as it punishes success, basically. It also starts too early.

 

I would not have sent CC out for the 9th myself, but I can understand it. The bullpen was worked pretty hard in LA, and we aren't even sure if Torres was available.

 

There's also quite a difference between running Wood and Prior (remember when they said his delivery would keep him healthy, heh) for several 120+ pitch outings in their early 20's, and having CC go 130 once because of an error. Ned has done a fine job watching pitch counts for years now.

[Worm8181]

If you look at that list, almost everyone in the top 15 is a number 1 or high 2 pitcher on rotations. You would expect them to get lots of work.

[2008 world champs]

I wanted to get mad at Ned, I really did. However, Ned was seen asking CC in the dugout. 130 is a lot of pitches and probably 20 too many. With that said, there are the extra days rest coming up for Mr. Sabathia and he said so himself. With that said, Ned better not make a habit of this especially in September when we have expanded rosters.

[rluzinski]

I'd rather skip Suppan once and get an extra start from CC than get 20 extra pitches in a blowout.

[dadofandrew]

Suppan has pitched better than Parra of late. He's not getting skipped.

[crewcrazy]

I'm a little irritated by tonight's decision to leave him in, but I'll be pretty ticked if this means they can't skip a couple of Parra's starts. Considering how vital he'll be to the team's success next year, I'd say it's a heck of a lot more important to keep Parra's innings down and reduce his risk of injury than it is to get Sabathia a Cy Young award by racking up complete games.

[rickey24]

Honestly, I don't recall a game that the Brewers won in a blow out and I came away upset like the game tonight. What is the point of bringing him back out there after throwing 111 pitches when he's going to bat in the bottom of the 8th??? CC looked to me like he was done, he was getting fist bumps in the dugout, had his jacket on, and sitting down, when Ned came up to him, talked to him, and then CC takes off the jacket and bats. I just didn't understand it, why would you send him back out there when he has nothing to prove, and you can use Mota or someone else to get three lousy outs! If you could have seen Ned's reaction when he went back out there and struggled throwing 19 more pitches than he needed to, it was just stunning.

 

I'll be curious to see how he bounces back in his next two starts after a game like this one, there was simply ZERO reasons for leaving him in. If the score was 3-0, would it have been Torres that was brought in? Well he was warming up in the bottom of the ninth when the bases were loaded....

 

Stunning.

 

Rickey

[Ennder]

Shouse has pitched 1 inning and in 2 games in the last 5 days. Riske has pitched 1.1 and 2 games in the last 5 days and didn't pitch yesterday. CV was done, he has pithced twice with good pitch counts in the last 5 days. McClung has pitched 1 IP in the last 6 days. Gagne has pitched 1.1 IP in the last 5 days.

 

Our bullpen wasn't anywhere near tired and we have Sheets who goes deep into games next. There was no reason for this.

[Jay Zahn]

Sheets made it through 7 innings 8 out of his first 16 starts, but only 2 out of the last 8.

 

The 9th inning unfolded weirdly, with guys reaching on errors and not hitting the ball hard. Then you had runners on base and Tejada and Berkman coming up, and Yost is going to use a CC with a drop left in the tank over a fresh Mota, Gagne, or Riske. Shouse wouldn't have helped in that situation.

 

Torres and Villanueva are the relievers who have impressed me this year. That's it. Shouse was a good pickup but he's a limited guy. Riske has been fine I guess, but look at his stats - he's sort of skating by. No major blowups but he's not blowing anybody away by any means. Mota and Gagne have been discussed too many times.

 

The decision has been made to get every possible good inning out of the starters. All of the starters are better than almost all of the relievers. Villanueva's just a failed starter anyway, and Torres is just a good relief pitcher and not a great one. If Torres couldn't go tonight, there is no way Yost brings in Mota so he can give up a granny to Berkman, then a HBP and another granny. Too many blown leads over the past few years.

[DHonks]

I have no issue with it tonight. My bigger concern is that our most trustworthy infielder has made two crucial errors in the last week. Sabathia will get tons of rest, and his tank might have just have had lots of pitches in it tonight. I have never had an issue with Ned's use of starters, as he has been extremely conservative with young pitchers, and is only going hard with Sheets and Sabathia. Also, I think 130 pitches in 9 innings is less taxing on the body than 100 pitches in 6 innings. One of the key stats we know the Brewers look at is pitches per inning.

[dadofandrew]

Jay, that's some good analysis. I think many folks are overreacting to just about everything, and this is no exception. Pressure affects people differently, and one thing is that minor decisions are magnified. That's how I see it. Hardy could have made the entire thing moot, but you can't pick and choose your bobbles.

 

As for Ben, his second half numbers are not nearly as good as his 1st. He is a bit slight for a RH, and he can probably use the extra time off as much as anyone. People can mock heavy set guys, but they have more "oomph" (to use a highly technical term). I would be concerned if CC went 130 several starts, or averaged 125 in a stretch. But, in his 2 high pitch games, he's went 124 and 130, and both included a walk and an error in his final inning, if memory serves. 2 of 9 for a veteran in a pennant race? Hardly an issue.

 

Heck, in the playoffs, 140 is not out of the question, though it's always hard for me to imagine a SP being a better option than a fresh RP at that point.

 

DH, both E's by JJ were him trying to rush DP's. He just needs to get one and let the 2B worry about 2. That said, as a solid defensive SS in softball, you go into fielding slumps...you start to expect bad hops, or knock it down because you aren't sure of yourself. I'm not worried about Hardy's hands. Errors are not spread out evenly, they are often bunched a bit.

[PKBadger]

If Torres couldn't go tonight, there is no way Yost brings in Mota so he can give up a granny to Berkman, then a HBP and another granny. Too many blown leads over the past few years.

 

OK, just so I have this straight:

 

Mota pitches 9th inning to hold 6-run lead in relief of Sabathia = acceptable (Aug. 13 Box Score)

Mota pitches 9th inning to hold 7-run lead in relief of Sabathia = UNACCEPTABLE!!!

 

That's sound logic.

[bigredrobbo]

I'm disgusted. This is simply unacceptable. Ridiculous also comes to mind.

 

I mean, have you ever seen such overreaction in all your life? I tell you, heads will roll for this...

[brewcrew00]

I'm disgusted. This is simply unacceptable. Ridiculous also comes to mind.

 

I mean, have you ever seen such overreaction in all your life? I tell you, heads will roll for this...

I agree, all this is, is a reaction to ONE night where a pitcher threw some extra pitches. He's not going to be hurt by it, it's fine, it's no big deal he went out there.

 

[fondybrewfan]

Perhaps we are already seeing signs of over use. His last two starts his command has not been very good, perhaps he is already getting a tired arm. I am all for getting the most out of CC but there really was no logical reason to leave him in their in the 9th. I maybe would have been OK if Ned took him out if anyone got on in the 9th but he didn't even have anyone warming up. It was just ridiculous. CC better hope and pray that Ned's use of him doesn't cost him millions this offseason if heaven forbid he gets hurt before the end of the year. It was just dumb.

[LUKE232323]

I don't know how ANYONE can side with Yost in this scenario. The only reason to trot CC out for the 9th last night was so that he could get a complete game. There is no other reason. When you have a 7 run lead and your pitcher is already over 100 pitches, you go to the pen; especially considering the pen is underworked overall as is. I was pissed as hell last night when they trotted him back out there for the 9th.

 

Add to the fact that the training staff very likely let Braun back too soon, and it's just a combination of idiocy in the dugout for the Brewers. Yeah, lets make uneducated decisions on no question our two best players....

[JohnBriggs12]

I was a little concerned but being old school as I am, I see Sabathia as an old school pitcher.

 

How many times did Steve Carlton throw 130 pitches when he went 16 consecutive years with double digit complete game totals? I'm certain it was quite common. How about Nolan Ryan? He was known to have reached 160 pitches and he pitched until his late 40's Sabathia threw 256 innings last year between the regular season and playoffs. The guy's a horse.

 

Some guys thrive on huge workloads. Not every pitcher is the same.

[endaround]

The reason why this was a stupid move was that there was no upside. What was the benefit of Sabathia pitching? A nice number on his baseball card? All there was was downside, Sabathia hitting for himself, tiring him out when his command was questionable, and putting even more rust on a bullpen that doesn't get enough innings as it is.

 

As for Sabathia saying he was fine to go, Pedro Martinez told Grady Little he was fine too.

[dadofandrew]

End, the bullpen went several inings in each game in LA. They were far from rusty.

[bigredrobbo]

Perhaps we are already seeing signs of over use. His last two starts his command has not been very good, perhaps he is already getting a tired arm. I am all for getting the most out of CC but there really was no logical reason to leave him in their in the 9th. I maybe would have been OK if Ned took him out if anyone got on in the 9th but he didn't even have anyone warming up. It was just ridiculous. CC better hope and pray that Ned's use of him doesn't cost him millions this offseason if heaven forbid he gets hurt before the end of the year. It was just dumb.

 

So the ERA over 7 at the start of the year when his control was all over the place was a result of what? Underuse? C'mon, we've set such a high bar for him that anything approaching what every other pitcher goes through is regarded as weakness and needs to be justified somehow.

 

As for not having anyone warming up, Guillermo Mota says hi.

 

It was dumb? Relax, Francis. Dude's the size of a sequoia and I doubt whether 110 pitches (his usual) compared to the 130 of last night is gonna break him.

 

Everyone whining keeps saying "he wore down in the playoffs last year". No he didn't. He pitched worse in the playoffs. Whether that has to do with wearing down, or, hey, the myriad other reasons why athletes don't perform to their potential is pure conjecture at this point.

 

I'd be more worried that Sheets sees that mythical 12 wins barrier about the size of the Great Wall of China and has pitched poorly lately. Maybe he's mentally wearing down from the strain of getting to 13 wins. Maybe Ned needs to give him some mental time off. That's it, it's Ned's fault for not giving Sheets time off...

[dadofandrew]

Ben's a first half pitcher, who probably does wear down quite a bit. He's not a big guy, and his conditioning is probably not as good as others.

 

I would have to agree there was little good to sending CC out for the 9th, but as I said, 2 higher pitch counts out of 9 starts in a pennant race is not being abused by any means. CC's due to get rocked one of these days, whether he throws 60 or 160.

[RU Rah Rah]

Not a huge deal, but I wouldn't have run him out there in the ninth. McClung probably could have used that inning of work more than CC.

 

I do wonder about running CC into the ground. He did have 240 IP last year, but that was a little bit of an outlier for him, statistically; his other seasons were 180, 210, 197, 188, 196, and 192. He's already in that range now, with 195.

 

Just FYI, I looked up "pitches thrown over the last 30 days," and, not surprisingly, CC leads MLB with 686. Parra is #23 with 592. Sheet is actually pretty far down that list, at #66 with 516.

[JohnBriggs12]

The reason why this was a stupid move was that there was no upside. What was the benefit of Sabathia pitching? A nice number on his baseball card? All there was was downside, Sabathia hitting for himself, tiring him out when his command was questionable, and putting even more rust on a bullpen that doesn't get enough innings as it is.

 

As for Sabathia saying he was fine to go, Pedro Martinez told Grady Little he was fine too.

Sabathia is 6'7" 290. Martinez is listed at 5'11" 195 but probably isn't more than 175. Talk about apples and oranges.

 

The upside was that throwing 130 pitches with a big lead stretched him out. His lead was big enough that he didn't really have to bear down on every pitch. Much like say a cross country runner who trains by running 6 or more miles in training to race 3, stretching out Sabathia to 130, might actually make him more effective going his usual 110-115.