Who will Cleveland pick? Latest -- It's Brantley for sure (reply #178ish)

[Postseason2006]

Problem with losing Brantley is that he IS everything the Brewers lack - a LH, good hitting, high OBP guy. If anyone is happy to think we can afford to lose him well??? If guys like this grew on trees, every team would have them.

 

He's the anti-Melvin type player.

[dadofandrew]

Since Sizemore is in CF, I assume he'll make the bigs long before Grady is done...Mike's not done switching yet.

[paul253]

The whole "nobody is going to pitch around him argument" is another one I dont understand. Of course nobody is going to pitch around him, other than Braun and Fielder nobody in the lineup gets pitched around. The thing with him is he wont swing at those same crap pitches that Hart, Hardy, Hall, and Weeks swing at, so they'll be forced to pitch to him. Unless he ends up like Weeks with a .240 batting average, I see nothing wrong with pitchers pitching to him. He appears to be able to hit his way on, even if its only a single.

Now I've never seen his hitting chart. Does he have a lot of hits up the middle and to left field?

Like Postseason said, he's exactly the opposite of almost every one of our current hitters which at this point can only be considered a good thing. For all of those who think its ok to be homerun or bust, he's a guy who'll be able to get on base before that homerun.

Again though, Taylor Green also appears to have very good plate discpline and plays a position we dont have as much depth at. Hopefully he continues his success.

[trwi7]

Nobody said they're going to pitch around him, what they said was if he doesn't develop more power teams aren't going to be afraid to just throw strikes to him because usually the worst case scenario is going to be a single. That means the value of his plate discipline takes a big hit.

[dadofandrew]

Counsell makes that argument seem ridiculous. Guys that walk do so because they take balls, not because the pitcher is afraid to pitch to them.

[brewjihad]

Problem with losing Brantley is that he IS everything the Brewers lack - a LH, good hitting, high OBP guy.

 

Taylor Green is this. A LH, good hitting, high OBP guy. Also, he has power, and he can play at his position. None of us want to lose Brantley, but Green is very valuable too.

[TheCrew07]

Sizemore hits well enough to be a corner OF... I don't see how Brantley would move from CF, more they slide over Sizemore in the last year of his deal, it wouldn't hurt his value as he approaches FA, and if he resigns then it still makes more sense for Cleveland if Brantley is in CF and Sizemore is in a corner spot.

[brewjihad]

The problem with that, TheCrew07, is that Brantley isn't all that good in center. The Brewers played him at 1B a lot early in the year and when Cain got called up to AA, they played Cain in center and Brantley in left. THT has Sizemore at .932 RZR and 94 OOZ plays; for comparison, Mike Cameron was .935, 64 in about 25 less games. I think those who extremely prefer Brantley to Green are just overlooking the fact that Brantley hasn't proven at all that he can play center, and his value is extremely limited if he needs to play left field.

[TheCrew07]

Exactly my point....

 

So why wouldn't Sizemore move to a corner spot and they try to maximize Brantley's value in center? They have a vested interest in Brantley's success... from a Cleveland perspective LaPorta and Brantley have to pan out or the Sabathia deal was an absolute bust for them.

 

My hunch is that Brantley will be averagish defensively in CF for Cleveland and pointing to where he played with the Brewers isn't really a valid/fair comparison is his case, as he always played with true CF prospects until this year. Unfortunately for him, getting him ABs didn't coincide with defensive development. This is my single biggest issue with the Brewer farm system to this point, players haven't been playing in the proper positions, or making the necessary defensive improvements as they progress.

 

I sincerely hope that the organization learned it's lesson with Weeks, Braun, and Fielder. However outside of Gamel's progress this season, it doesn't appear to me anyone else is making significant defensive improvement year to year. It will be nice with the team in Appleton next year, as we'll be able to see if those kids are making significant improvement as the season progresses. As fans, defensively we've always been in the dark, as E totals don't tell the majority of the story, and it's rarely a topic covered by the local media in each city.

[LouisEly]

Homer just brought up perhaps the most releveant point - glad it was not Lucroy. For those who missed it, Lucroy led the Brewers minor leagues in home runs this year with above-average defense. As valuable as above-average defense and offense is in a catcher (see what MIN got for Pyrzinski, what ATL got for Saltalamacchia), I think they could trade Lucroy for more than either Green or Brantley is worth. And for those who missed it, Agent39 reminded us that Green was 3 away from the BC record for HRs with a month left in the season when he got hurt. Green could be a poor-man's Utley.

 

Before we get all up in arms about this and that they are losing a LH good-hitting OF, consider this - Hardy and Green occupy 2B/3B, Escobar at SS, and Prince at 1B; Gamel moves to the OF. Gamel becomes your good-hitting LH OF instead of Brantley. Let's be honest, it is unlikely that Gamel's defense at 3B ever becomes even as good as average. Then many things could happen with CF - Cain takes over in CF, Weeks moves to CF, Hart is moved to CF, or Weeks/Hart is moved for a LH CF.

 

Bottom line is that the cupboard is not bare.

[dadofandrew]

BA's opinion was that LuCroy is raw/weak on D.

[brewjihad]

So why wouldn't Sizemore move to a corner spot and they try to maximize Brantley's value in center? They have a vested interest in Brantley's success... from a Cleveland perspective LaPorta and Brantley have to pan out or the Sabathia deal was an absolute bust for them.

 

This would make sense if they had no chance of contending, but it would be a poor way to try to win ballgames. If Sizemore is good in center and Brantley is not good. Playing Sizemore in center and Brantley in left would make the team better, they wouldn't be able to justify moving Sizemore because Brantley has more value in center.

 

BA's opinion was that LuCroy is raw/weak on D.

 

Really? Everything I've read says that Lucroy (the C isn't capitalized, by the way) is pretty polished defensively. He's definitely regarded as better than Salome that way. Can you provide a specific BA mention that he's raw/weak on D? I can't find any good scouting reports right now, but I have never heard his defense criticized.

[mancl]

I have a sense of where Green is at offensively but could someone please fill me in on his defense. I know he plays 3rd now but can he play 2nd? Is he likely to be an average defensive player, above average?

 

Thanks

[trwi7]

Here's Lucroy's scouting report from milb.com before the 2007 draft.

 

Focus Area	Comments
Hitting Ability:	Lucroy has an average bat with a line-drive stroke.
Power:	While more of a line-drive hitter, he does have some raw power and should have average power in the future. He's got very strong hands.
Running Speed:	He's a below-average runner, but isn't bad for a catcher.
Arm Strength:	He's got an above-average arm.
Fielding:	Lucroy is an excellent receiver with good defensive skills across the board.
Physical Description:	As a strong backstop, Lucroy reminds some of Michael Barrett or Mike Lieberthal.
Medical Update:	Healthy.
Strengths:	Good line-drive stroke, excellent defensive skills behind the plate and natural leadership ability.
Weaknesses:	How much power he actually has will determine just how bright his future is .
Summary:	Lucroy is a pretty good, if lesser-known, all-around catching prospect. He has a good line-drive stroke and has the chance to hit for average with some pop. Defensively, he is a natural leader who throws extremely well. Those who look for college catching in this draft should surely take a look at Lucroy.

[colbyjack]

I mentioned in the thread that has the league-by-league reports from BA that I felt their assessment of Lucroy was inaccurate since we've never heard anything but good things about his defense. He isn't flashy, but he's solid across the board, and he threw out 51% of baserunners in the FSL.

 

And difference with the report trwi7 shared is that from what we've heard Lucroy's arm is average at best, but his accuracy, transfer and footwork are so solid it allows him to throw out runners at a high clip.

[dadofandrew]

I only know of Colby's recap, which says he throws well but needs work on all other aspects of his defense.

[TheCrew07]

who says they'll ever be in the same outfield together? Again, Sizemore is good enough he can play anywhere if it came to that.

[danzig6767]

You act like Green is some undisciplined K machine that hacks at nearly everything while trying to jack home runs. The guy only struck out 59 times last year and walked 61 times, his overall plate discipline is a strength, not a weakness.

 

And the argument that he has more power I dont really care about because, as I said, we dont need anymore power. Braun, Fielder, Hardy, Hart, and even Weeks will get you homeruns...you dont need more homeruns at the expense of OBP. And while homeruns win a bunch of games, they also cause you to lose alot when you rely so heavily on them and they disappear, as the Brewers offense has shown for 5 weeks now. I'd rather have a leadoff hitter that'll get on base then a two hitter that'll hit 15 homeruns and get on at a lower clip.

1. Neither Brantley or Green would play for the Brewers next year and at best would make the bigs the following season. So there would be two offseasons before there is any realistic chance either guy would have been in Milwaukee. In two years, the odds of all Prince, Hardy, Hart, and Weeks all still being on the team strike me as very remote. Hell, one or two of them could possibly get moved this offseason. Cameron surely won't be here in two years and i'd bet against Hall still being here. How is it then that you can say in two years that the Brewers won't need some power or for that matter, claim to know at all what the team needs or shortcomings will be in two years given you can't know what the roster will look like unless you can predict the future years ahead? If you can, i sure hope you're betting on sports or playing the lottery and thus are insanely rich.

 

2. If Green continues to progress well, the Brewers won't have to trade off some pop with him at the expense of OBP, so i'm not sure why you include that comment. In his last two seasons, Green got on base at a .406 and .382 clip, both times they weren't batting average dependant either given his well above average walk rate. In fact, Green pretty much walks at the same rate as Brantley. The last two years, Green has been near exactly the type of hitter you wish the current Brewers had more of.

 

 

I really like both players a lot and obviously wish we didn't have to lose either guy. I also can understand why some prefer Brantley, it's a close call. That said though, i just don't get the arguement you keep using as it relates to our current team given Green isn't at all the type of hitter that you seem to feel this years Brewers team has to many of? Having power, but very strikeout prone, low batting average, and poor at getting on base.Green so far isn't like a Weeks or Hart. He doesn't K a lot. He's a patient hitter. He hits for average. He takes walks. He gets on base. Just because he also has shown some ability to hit home runs and doubles to go along with making contact well and getting on base, that lumps him in how with the current Brewers shortcomings on offense?

[danzig6767]

Hey Colby, do you have any inside info on who the Brewers hoped the Indians would choose or who the Brewers would have sent if it was their call?

[endaround]

People seem to assume that Brantley has to play in Cleveland. He doesn't. I wouldn't be surprised if he never spends a day on the Indians. He can very well be traded again, and his bat projects at CF not really anywhere else.

[Never Outhustled]

And the argument that he has more power I dont really care about because, as I said, we dont need anymore power.

Thers only 2 ways to increase runs scored, and 1 of them is to increase slugging %.

 

A scout during the season called Brantley a future all-star, so that suggests that scout believes he'll increase his power. I don't think Green will ever approach all-star, but he can still be a solid starter. I've compared Green to Mike Fontonot before, and Fontonot would start for us. I'll miss Brantley, but the Crew still has a top farm system.

[jjfanec]

I've compared Green to Mike Fontonot before, and Fontonot would start for us. I'll miss Brantley, but the Crew still has a top farm system.

I think this isn't the best comparison as Green has shown better power than Fontenot in the minors. You factor in how much of a pitchers park Brevard is and Green's .825 OPS of this year would be much higher. Fontenot only had one minor league season with over 10 home runs. Green has had 14 and 15 his last two season and he was at least one year younger and "less polished" than Fontenot who had played college ball first. We talk about how young guys like Brantley can develop power so it should be said Green can develop more as well. He could end up as .275 BA, .350 OBP, 20 HR guy which would be great.

[colbyjack]

Hey Colby, do you have any inside info on who the Brewers hoped the Indians would choose or who the Brewers would have sent if it was their call?

 

No, unfortunatley I don't. There were so many reports flying around the past few months it was hard to keep track, and most of the people inside the organization make sure not to talk about this kind of stuff.

 

I do know that it was more than a hunch that Taylor Green was expected to be the player named at one point in time, as it seemed to be between those two players. I also know that the Brewers mentioned right before they traded for Sabathia that they had five prospects they didn't want to trade more than one of, and Brantley was mentioned as one of those five (LaPorta obviously was one, with Jeffress, Gamel and Escobar being the other three).

[paul253]

Neither Brantley or Green would play for the Brewers next year and at best would make the bigs the following season. So there would be two offseasons before there is any realistic chance either guy would have been in Milwaukee. In two years, the odds of all Prince, Hardy, Hart, and Weeks all still being on the team strike me as very remote. Hell, one or two of them could possibly get moved this offseason. Cameron surely won't be here in two years and i'd bet against Hall still being here. How is it then that you can say in two years that the Brewers won't need some power or for that matter, claim to know at all what the team needs or shortcomings will be in two years given you can't know what the roster will look like unless you can predict the future years ahead? If you can, i sure hope you're betting on sports or playing the lottery and thus are insanely rich.

Tone it down a bit there Danzig....when did I ever claim to know what the teams shortcomings will be in 2 years? Beside, you seem to be predicting the future when you said Brantley wouldnt play in the majors next year. I think there would have been a very good chance he'd play in the majors next year. If we are to sign CC and not pick up Cameron's option, he would almost certainly have had a chance to win an outfield spot. Even if not, if he puts together a similar season in AAA as he did in AA, he'd probably be the first outfielder called up if we had an injury to an outfielder. And while there is no way to predict what the roster will look like a few years, you can reasonably predict that a team like Milwaukee will be made primarily of homegrown players with compliments from trades and maybe a few FA's. You know Braun will be there. You know Salome will be there, same with Escobar and Gamel, and at least 2 of Fielder, Hart, Hardy, and Weeks, will probably still be here. So while you dont know who all the compliments are, you can make a fairly educated guess on who will be.

Green is a good player. But in terms in walks, strikeouts, stolen bases, OBP, and pure contact, Brantley did better than Green in all those categories while about the same age and in a tougher league. If you dont agree with me that we need better OBP and fewer strikeout guys, thats fine, but thats what I personally think. And I personally think Brantley fits more of an offensive need than Green does (as in if you could only pick one, who would you pick). Although they are similar type hitters, Brantley was better at those categories while Green had more homerun power and a high slugging. All I am saying is I dont care if we have a guy that'll hit homeruns when we already have/probably will have enough guys will homerun power. I'd rather have the guy with a higher OBP who can steal some bases.

[filthyfrog]

While I hate to see Brantley go, I think he would have been blocked in Milwaukee. In a couple years we could have an OF of Braun, Hart, and Gamel. I don't think Brantley would play over any of them. I don't think Gamel will stick at 3B and I'm not convinced Weeks is the long term answer at 2B, so I'm glad we still have Green to potentially fill one of those spots.