Haudricourt condescension toward blog participants ("Adam's" message to Brewerfan in reply #159)

[1992casey]

I see Tom has now removed the guy's e-mail address. Bots can harvest them from web pages and send spam. I'm going to edit it out of the above post, too, so it can't be harvested from this page.

[RU Rah Rah]

Wow, it was atrocious even without the guy's full name and email. He's just becoming completely unhinged over this blog thing.

[Thwarted By the Thracians]

Adam J? I had no idea that Pacman Jones was such a vehement Brewers blog participant.

[sweepscc]

Tom H needs to give Ari Fleischer a honk. Damage control time.

[MNBrew]

The guy is a beat writer. Reporting always comes with a perspective, regardless of how objective the intent. (Just as they say, the past doesn't change, but history does because it always depends on the reporter/writer's perspective.) The blog is the guy's free-will contribution to Brewers discussion with updates much more frequent than the paper would carry them, no length limitations, and a chance to actually write with an intentionally personal perspective. All in all, I've been quite pleased with how timely and detailed the blog posts have occurred throughout the year.

 

I don't usually read the subsequent threads, so I've missed some of TH's retorts to readers. I'd much rather read what BF.net has to offer. Whether he's a little arrogant or not, I don't know and wouldn't surmise to know. But the frequency and number of folks attacking and trashing him constantly, often on very personal levels, strikes me not just as silly but ridiculous and offensive.

 

People would often rag on TH & Drew Olson for hardly contributing much throughout the offseason except around the winter meetings and immediately around a significant Brewers move. With the blog, TH & AW now give us tons of stuff and are quite prompt with it. Yet the attacks are still relentless. I'm not suggesting he's a saint or a Pulitzer Prize-winning writer, either, but gee whiz, what's to be gained by trashing the guy non-stop? To paraphrase Yost, the situation is what it is. Not that TH was right for getting into it personally with readers/critics, but after hearing years' worth of unmerited crap, I'd find it hard to continue turning the other cheek, too.

[bullox]

after hearing years' worth of unmerited crap, I'd find it hard to continue turning the other cheek, too.

Warranted or not, there is heat in that kitchen. If it was too hot for him, he should know what to do.

 

[MNBrew]

Warranted or not, there is heat in that kitchen. If it was too hot for him, he should know what to do.

I totally agree, Bullox. I wouldn't condone what happened. Ideally he should've stayed "above the fray" on anything personal, which still would've left the blog door open for intelligent dialogue.

 

[RU Rah Rah]

I would not be surprised to see the blog shut down today (if only briefly). It's getting ugly. (Or uglier, I mean.)

[Sheets4theHOF]

Sad thing is that everyone who reads the MJS brewers blog through a RSS feeder gets the full name and email still. What a totally unprofessional move. Could you imagine any of the packer beat writers at MJS pulling this crap?

[wisportswriter]

Please note, and I cannot emphasize this enough, that I am not condoning some of the ways Tom has reacted to these situations, including this most recent.

 

But in the spirit of walking a mile in another man's shoes, try to imagine what it would be like to be a writer on the same beat for a long number of years - so you obviously know at least a little something about what you're covering - and now everybody and his brother thinks they know more than you and rips you relentlessly in multiple public forums. Translate that kind of thing to any job, for that matter.

 

I am sure Tom is very passionate about his job and cares deeply about his work; I know I do. And I also know if as many people openly criticized my work as they do Tom's, it would be difficult for me to handle. I'd like to think I'd handle it a little better - not get involved in direct attacks there's no way I'm going to win - but I'm as human as the next guy.

 

How would you handle it if people were hurdling insults your way on a consistent basis?

[BrewCrewForever]

Maybe it's just me, but I think TH does a pretty good job. I mostly enjoy reading his blog as well as his articles in the JS.

[sweepscc]

But in the spirit of walking a mile in another man's shoes, try to imagine what it would be like to be a writer on the same beat for a long number of years - so you obviously know at least a little something about what you're covering - and now everybody and his brother thinks they know more than you and rips you relentlessly in multiple public forums. Translate that kind of thing to any job, for that matter.

Which makes it amazing to me that TH and Ned Yost don't get along. If anyone knows what Yost feels like it's probably TH, yet he attacked Yost like nobody's business. I guess you could call this whole blowup, poetic justice.

 

[PeaveyFury]

I would think putting his name and e-mail in his blog opens the JS up for a possible lawsuit.

 

Tom's unprofessional behavior is just astounding. Yeah, it probably stinks to watch your work criticized when you feel you've made your best effort, but that's what the writing profession is all about. I'm sure movie makers aren't happy when critics tear apart their movies, or when authors have books that are poorly received. But I'll bet the makers of "Glitter" didn't post the e-mail addresses and names of the people who didn't like the movie on the studio's website.

[Sheets4theHOF]

How would you handle it if people were hurdling insults your way on a consistent basis?

Really i don't totally fault him with getting combative in the comments section. If that's how he wants to spend his time, more power to him. But this latest gem is something that an immature teenager would do. All TH had to do was say "Some people have complained about my back and forth with readers in the comments section. To avoid offending readers and commenters in the future, from now on I will rarely post in the comments section and focus on delivering more news to the blog."

Instead he was pissed that someone went above to his boss and wanted to get the last word/shot in. His claims of wanting to be above the fray are laughable.

 

[JJHardy7]

I would think putting his name and e-mail in his blog opens the JS up for a fairly significant lawsuit.

 

I agree 100% Peavey. I don't think TH's paper articles or his blog is horrible by any means. I think it's a shame that he's attacked those that disagree (isn't this why this thread was started?) and his mailbag is a complete joke. He picks the questions AND he picks those that challenge him. Wouldn't it be easier to ignore those? There are going to be those that don't like the guy and get upset at what he says and that's exactly what makes a sports journalist 'popular'. I believe Chuck Carlson (former/current? PC writer) has told this to students in journalism. The best column is one that gets people talking and not one that gets everyone shaking their head yes. I don't question TH's work, but to put a full name and e-mail out there is just a very stupid career choice. Why call the guy out?

 

I do hope the JS makes a change - don't let TH comment, don't allow comments, or screen the comments better. I think those that haven't read the blog and/or the comments don't understand some of the poor behavior there that does not exist anywhere here. It's night and day between here and JS, but TH is supposed to be a professional and if my name was the name posted and e-mail (it wasn't and I didn't complain) I would be so upset. That's just not right and TH seems to be taking his boss' frustration out on this guy. If it was so innocent, it would've never been mentioned in his blog. TH got in trouble and now he's saving face or trying to by removing the e-mail, the full name, the initial, and hopefully the entire name.

[And That]

He didn't even have to say "I'm not going to post anymore in the comments section" - he could have just stopped doing it. Instead, he posted that he wasn't going to comment anymore... and then proceeded to post four more times in that blog's comments section.

 

Not to mention he didn't get Escobar's error total right. When someone corrected him, he responded with "I BELIEVE ESCOBAR HAS 19 ERRORS" (yes, in all caps). Baseball Reference, Kojak.

[lcbj68c]

I would think putting his name and e-mail in his blog opens the JS up for a possible lawsuit.

No Way! While it was unprofessional, there is in no way a case for defamation of character here. Here are the elements to defamation of character, all which must be present.

 

Defamation is the issuance of a false statement about another person, which causes that person to suffer harm.

Slander involves the making of defamatory statements by a transitory (non-fixed) representation, usually an oral (spoken) representation.

Libel involves the making of defamatory statements in a fixed or medium, such as a magazine or newspaper.

 

The elements of a cause of action for defamation are:

1. A false and defamatory statement concerning another; (the biggest one, nothing appears false in the statement made by Haudricort)

2. The unprivileged publication of the statement to a third party; (yes)

3. If the defamatory matter is of public concern, fault amounting at least to negligence on the part of the publisher; and (maybe, JS does not appear to edit these things and the negligence may lie with Haudricort only and not the Journal Sentinel.)

4. Damage to the plaintiff. (pretty hard to quantify)

 

So while the elements may be met for #2 and #3, and loosely at that, certainly #1 isn't met as the statements aren't false as we know them. Certainly this Adam fella did the action being accussed by Haudricort. Simply publicizing somebody's email address is not a matter of libel.

 

There may be another issue or privacy in regards to the giving out of an email address, but it has already been ruled by the Supreme Court that an email address is not a matter of personal privacy. It is not privileged information such as a date of birth, social security number, medical information, home address, etc.

 

So while unprofessional, this is a far cry for a lawsuit, especially not against the JS.

 

 

[JJHardy7]

There may be another issue or privacy in regards to the giving out of an email address, but it has already been ruled by the Supreme Court that an email address is not a matter of personal privacy. It is not privileged information such as a date of birth, social security number, medical information, home address, etc.

 

What about his name though? He could've complained to his boss and the boss told TH about it and then publicly publishing it I would have to think could potentially break some laws -- especially if his name and/or e-mail was never given to the JS as a log-in to comment on the blog. I don't think defamation, slander, or libel would work, but we don't know what information 'Adam' gave to the JS site and what information TH passed on from his bosses. You could also argue the 'feelings hurt' thing crosses the line depending on what 'Adam' actually said. The reaction also on the blog due to TH's comments are calling him a baby, etc. and that itself would prove 1 and 4 on your list due to TH's desire to include 'Adam's' name, e-mail, and most importantly the 'feelings hurt' when in reality we have no clue what was said and TH could've made up the 'feelings hurt thing'. All in all a very dumb move by TH.

 

*Note this is not legal advice and I've only taken a few business law/law school courses so I'm probably wrong in my analysis http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Mass Haas]

I listen to all the archived Haudricourt sessions with the D-List and Homer and enjoy them.

 

It'll be interesting to see if Drew or anyone else initiates a discussion of blogging do's and don'ts, the quagmire TH has gotten himself into, etc.

 

They should just change the name right now from "blog" to "ticker" and kill the comment section. If Haudricourt isn't going to interact, and only make initial posts, it's simply a news update, albeit often a very timely and appreciated one.

 

If the purpose originally was for TH to have the freedom to share his non-reporter but informed observer opinions, and he's no longer willing to follow-up or counter reader comments, then the "blog" aspect is gone.

[lcbj68c]

Your name is also not a matter of privacy. Such as criminals or those arrested can't complain that their name is the paper. Obviously that situation isn't positive press as is this situation wasn't positive press, so I don't see the basis at all for a civil lawsuit. My specialty is criminal law, but I dabble some in civil law and I'm just not seeing it here. Again, I disagree and think it's highly unprofessional, but not lawsuit material.

[JJHardy7]

Your name is also not a matter of privacy. Such as criminals or those arrested can't complain that their name is the paper. Obviously that situation isn't positive press as is this situation wasn't positive press, so I don't see the basis at all for a civil lawsuit. My specialty is criminal law, but I dabble some in civil law and I'm just not seeing it here. Again, I disagree and think it's highly unprofessional, but not lawsuit material.

 

I understand that a name isn't a private matter, but I don't see the comparison to a crime. The crime is commited against the city/county/state/feds and they have the right to bring the name to the public due to the action of an individual more or less. I think it's a matter of what the JS policy is regarding the username and all that. I personally don't think it'd be worth any time to proceed with the lawsuit, but I do think it could violate some of the legal parameters regarding the JS -- depending on how they are laid out. It's using a person's likeness in a published matter without their consent when they haven't commited a crime against a said person in said city/county/state/feds. Again, it's probably a moot point, but the fact that TH called it 'hurt feelings' and such he attached emotion to the individual. I personally would want nothing to do with the case, but if I'm the JS I have a little talk with TH about how to interact with people in a civil manner...this thread almost predicted this!

[Sundown Kid]

Since Tom announced that he would no longer post on his blog, he has three more posts, each claiming to be the last post. He's gunning for the week's Brett Favre award.

 

Tom isn't the greatest beat writer in the world, as I'm sure he would acknowledge. I'm sure he isn't the worst either. I generally feel that when there's Brewers news, we hear about it from him.

 

When Tom puts anything out there with an open forum available, it allows anonymous morons to take potshots at him. Tom is handicapped by the fact that he is the only one actually identified by name--everyone else can throw garbage at him yet go about their lives as if they weren't depraved losers. Tom had a chance to turn the tables and took it...and threw the guys name out there. Should he have? Of course not. But I can understand the knee-jerk reaction that led to him doing so.

 

Some here and on the JS blog have mentioned "libel." Get serious. Did Tom lie about "Adam?" Did he misrepresent "Adam?" Nope.

 

Someone posted that if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. That's definitely good advice for Mr. Haudricourt, and he should take it. And Tom, quit posting after you've claimed that you'd no longer post--that is incredibly juvenile. On the other hand, I think the kitchen heat advice applies for Adam and the rest of the blog participants. When you put your words out there in public, be prepared for the possible consequences.

[RU Rah Rah]

Again, I disagree and think it's highly unprofessional, but not lawsuit material.

I basically agree. Falsehood is the most significant hurdle, and I don't think that TH disseminated any kind of false information. I suppose that the guy could try to make some kind of harassment claim (since you could easily make the argument that TH seems to have publicized his name and email in a thinly-veiled effort to have him harassed by angry blog posters), but that would be a stretch (unless he does encounter some significant cyber-bullying).

TH's bigger problem is going to in-house, I believe. From what it looks like from his own explanation, he was told to tone down his blog presence, and not be so confrontational. He then proceeded to not only rant against the person who complained about him, but also name the guy and post his email address. If I were his boss, I would have to question his professional judgment.

 

 

 

 

 

[JJHardy7]

Did Tom lie about "Adam?" Did he misrepresent "Adam?" Nope.

 

How do we know? We don't know what Adam said, but my guess is the guy didn't want his name nor his e-mail published. Look at the comments made about 'Adam'. These thoughts never happen if TH doesn't mention his FULL name and his e-mail address. We have no clue what was said or if Adam was even a poster. He could've e-mailed TH or his boss and it came to this point. Either way I don't think it matters and I do appreciate TH's first hand news, but between this crap that's been going on his blogs for awhile and his 'Ned Yost is fired from a badger blog' thing I've lost some respect for him. The Brewers are finally showing they belong the past 2 seasons, but we may be finding out some of the staff following them can't handle the extra attention in a professional manner.

 

And as far as the 'words out there in public' for Adam we have no clue what he said or anything. This could've been a conversation via person, phone call, or e-mail and we have no clue the details of it. We do know the reaction and it was quite unprofessional IMO.

[lcbj68c]

Much agreed JJ Hardy7, I guess maybe using a crminal's name wasn't the exact point I was getting at. I was simply trying to find the "most negative" context that I could. Here's a different example. Somebody that is a "person of interest in a case" but not arrested or somebody who does negatively in a ball game, or somebody who does negatively in a community act. Simply because the press is negative press doesn't sudddenly proclude the press from using your name in a publication. Am I more clear that way? I also don't think that Tom Haudricort saying the fella had "hurt feelings" neccessarily makes the statement a false statement and satisfies element #1 of defamation of character.

 

On the other hand, I am going to backtrack a little bit and post the following from the privacy policy when you sign up for an interactive account at JSonline.com

 

Except as stated in this privacy policy or at the time of collection, a user's personally identifiable information will not be transferred to a party outside Journal Interactive and Journal Sentinel Inc., its divisions or affiliates, or its service vendors unless notice is given at the time of collection or prior to transfer. OnWisconsin.com and JSOnline.com may also disclose account information in special cases when we have reason to believe that disclosing this information is necessary to identify, contact or bring legal action against someone who may be violating our User Agreement or may be causing injury to or interference with (either intentionally or unintentionally) OnWisconsin.com and JSOnline.com's rights or property, other OnWisconsin.com and JSOnline.com users, or anyone else that could be harmed by such activities.

 

The 2nd half of that is up for open intrepretation I guess. Two lawyers would have fun arguing that. But I also agree that it would be frivilous and a waste of time. Any lawsuit though would seemingly lie with Haudricort and not the JS, as it appears they were prudent in making TH seemingly remove the information promptly.