Haudricourt condescension toward blog participants ("Adam's" message to Brewerfan in reply #159)

[Principessa21]

Everyone take a step back and try to look at this situation from an outsider's point of view. Can anyone truly imagine how much crap he has to listen to and see on a daily basis, whether it is from the team or from the readers? From people making up stories and posting them on random blogs, then having to address them (his one BIG mistake in my book) to people giving him insane trade proposals to people just outright taking shots at him, I'm surprised he has not completely unloaded on someone yet. The blogs are for reporting up to the minute news and for him to give his own opinion. Furthermore, if any of you think that by voicing your opinions in public will cause him to get fired or in trouble, I think you are mistaken. You know that the blogs have only made the number of hits increase on JSonline and that equals higher $$$ for advertising. It's the shock value. While some of his opinions and thoughts I'm sure are true, sometimes I think he responds in a way to get people in a frenzy...and it works. This thread is evidence of it. So in conclusion, give the guy a break. He gives you updates, quality journalism, and is well respected. And if you still want to unseat him from the JS, go to journalism school.

But it can be done. Look at Tyler Kepner, Yankee beat writer for the NY Times. He's a smart baseball guy, can write for both the casual fan and the stat geeks, and writes daily on his blog (where his opinions are present, but it's never "well this is what Tyler Kepner thinks on this..." He responds to comments and criticisms (on both the blog and emails) with professionalism. TH doesn't bother me because I've come to understand that he's the majority, but it doesn't have to be like that. It really is a shame that the JS thinks he's the best option.

 

[jaybird2001wi]

As a journalism major, I had a chance to meet a few reporters/other individuals from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel during networking opportunities, and came to the conclusion that several people from the MJ-S are not exactly the nicest people.

It was like pulling teeth just to get Garry Howard to return my phone calls when I inquired about "shadowing" Drew Olson during a game and Howard always made it out to be a chore just to talk to the common person and seemed to treat aspiring journalists like garbage unless you knew someone.

I never really liked the attitude of some of the Journal-Sentinel people and they always often mislead me to believe I could get a better glimpse of their newspaper. I remember when I toured the press building on Burnham St. and there was an "operations manager" who told me he "can hook me up" with Garry Howard and maybe set up a lunch with him to talk about the business as a networking opportunity. A few days later, the same "operations manager" acted like he doesn't even know Howard at all.

The only two guys I found to be cordial or nice to me during this one networking opportunity was Rick Braun and Gary D'Amato.

[kramnoj]

I agree that Tyler Kepner is very good at what he does, but I think that he represents what is possible when you have a niche audience. He isn't writing for the average fan, he's writing for the Times, so his audience is different than one that buys the Post.

[PKBadger]

There's never been a better thread for this clip...here's to you, MJS!

 

[homer]

He's far and away the best reporter covering the Brewers. Its hard to even think of others really.

Well, it is the Milwaukee Brewers and there's only one daily in the city of Milwaukee so it stands to reason there really isn't anyone else.

[Principessa21]

I agree that Tyler Kepner is very good at what he does, but I think that he represents what is possible when you have a niche audience. He isn't writing for the average fan, he's writing for the Times, so his audience is different than one that buys the Post.

You're comparing WI's major paper with the NY Post? The Post is way more tabloidish. You could use the Daily News, and again Feisand isn't as good as Kepner, but still yards ahead of TH. To me it isn't about readership, it's about being a good reporter who can communicate professionally with fans.

 

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

I listen to Handricourt once in a while on Homer True's show and I think he does a fine job. Is this really a big deal? It's just a blog. He didn't do this in the newspaper or anything.

[kramnoj]

I agree that Tyler Kepner is very good at what he does, but I think that he represents what is possible when you have a niche audience. He isn't writing for the average fan, he's writing for the Times, so his audience is different than one that buys the Post.

You're comparing WI's major paper with the NY Post? The Post is way more tabloidish. You could use the Daily News, and again Feisand isn't as good as Kepner, but still yards ahead of TH. To me it isn't about readership, it's about being a good reporter who can communicate professionally with fans.

 

 

Please point out where I compared the JS with the Post. I contrasted the readership of the Times with the readership of the Post.

 

Do you really think that a writer doesn't tailor their style to their readership, or that a paper doesn't find writers that are capable of doing so? Do you think Kepner would write exactly the same way if he was writing for the Post?

 

Here's an example that won't apply very well, but it's the first thing that comes to mind: when the Packers invoked "Crossing the Rubicon" to discuss the Favre discussions, some local talk radio had some fun with Rubic's Cubes and Horicon, etc etc. The hosts could have looked up the reference and discussed if it was relevant, but it was made fun of, because most of the audience was unfamiliar with the meaning, and it's easier to make of something than to learn about it. The hosts played to their audience, just as a writer should.

[dhoffman19]

You honestly don't think anyone else on the staff could do what Tom does without antagonizing their readerbase? All 4 of the J-S's Packer writers manage to remain above the scrum with a much more rabid fanbase. Why can't their Brewers writers follow suit?

You obviously never read Cliff Christl's Packers chats, or even McGinn's from time to time.....

[dhoffman19]

TH and I think Potrykus are the only reporters that respond to the blog comments. I don't see why he even bothers if he's going to get all upset like that. It's pretty unprofessional (and yes, it's a blog but it's still a JSOnline blog - not the Tom Haudricourt blog - so there should be some semblance of professionalism).

Agreed. His pissy responses to the blog commenters make him look ridiculous.

[Principessa21]

Please point out where I compared the JS with the Post. I contrasted the readership of the Times with the readership of the Post.

 

Do you really think that a writer doesn't tailor their style to their readership, or that a paper doesn't find writers that are capable of doing so? Do you think Kepner would write exactly the same way if he was writing for the Post?

 

Here's an example that won't apply very well, but it's the first thing that comes to mind: when the Packers invoked "Crossing the Rubicon" to discuss the Favre discussions, some local talk radio had some fun with Rubic's Cubes and Horicon, etc etc. The hosts could have looked up the reference and discussed if it was relevant, but it was made fun of, because most of the audience was unfamiliar with the meaning, and it's easier to make of something than to learn about it. The hosts played to their audience, just as a writer should.

I'm sorry I inferred something from your post when I shouldn't have. Still, it doesn't matter how a writer tailors their articles towards the readership. Is it that hard to want good reporting and smart baseball discussion without condescension? That's my problem with TH, but honestly I'm not really as bothered as it might seem. It's just been a pet peeve of mine for some time.

 

[kramnoj]

Is it that hard to want good reporting and smart baseball discussion without condescension? That's my problem with TH, but honestly I'm not really as bothered as it might seem. It's just been a pet peeve of mine for some time.

 

No, it's not hard at all to want that. The issue is that your idea of good reporting and smart baseball discussion is an ideal that is hard to provide when one person is trying to write to a very large audience.

 

If there was a question on what an ideal game article would be, there would be quite a few different answers. Some would only want the most basic facts. Some would want the story of the game, but would like a little flavor added to a dry story. Some would want lots of quotes, because they like to read about the people that are on the team. Some might want an in-depth discussion of decisions made during the game, alternatives that were available, what the LI was, what the WPA was, etc. There is no way that one writer can satisfy all those desires.

 

This is really the only Brewer site that I read. I see that another site links to fangraphs and boxscores after the game, but doesn't really write a game recap. Is there a Brewer Blogger that does any kind of game recap with their own analysis, with some of the things I discussed earlier? If there was enough of a market for it, surely some devoted fan could take the time to do it, and see what the response would be. Heck, if I was a student that wanted to be a sportswriter, that is exactly what I would do, and see if I could become Aaron Gleeman 2.0

[Brian the Automator]

I'm not a journalist, but I do like to think I play a role in the Brewers' "scene". Obviously, the rules Tom applies to his blog aren't the ones that I apply to my site, but I just wouldn't feel right about flaming users because I disagreed with them. There were times in the past were I chose NOT to take the high road, and I realized I looked just as dumb as those I had problems with.

 

Take the high road, Tom. I enjoy the blog very much, as I think it's a very useful source of information given it's real-time nature. Maybe just turn off the comments or simply don't read them. It's fine that you show an opinion in your blog posts, just don't get nasty about it.

[holybannana]

He's a dork. I read a mailbag of his and someone formed a well thought out question regarding Cameron and how his OPS is actually very good. Tom, obviously caught with his pants down or something, responding with something like "I just call them as I see them". Like he's some kind of baseball God.

 

Guys, the Journal is a pretty bad paper and it's written for 4th graders. Naturally, Tom H. writes like a fourth grader and analyzes the team like a 4th grader. Don't expect anything useful from him but reported facts. His opinion is trash, like most peoples. He is a pretentious fool who really thinks his position as newsie for the Brewers in the local rag (does anyone really read that paper?) makes him the torch bearer for a generation of Brewers fans.

 

Don't read his trash. If you do, just scan it for the facts. His opinions are laughable in their simplicity, naivety and general lack of understanding a game he covers professionally, in great pretense and chutzpah no less.

[yoshii8]

I think that might be a little extreme holybanana, but everybody has their opinion.

 

Anyways, I was reading the mailbag from yesterday and I saw this Q/A with Anthony Witrado. I find it crazy that the beat reporter doesn't know that you can't trade draft picks. How many other things do you thinks he guesses on?

 

JS ONLINE: SPORTS: BREWERS: E-MAIL | PRINT

THIS STORY

 

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Q: Jon C of Eau Claire - Hey Tom/Anthony, I was reading something about prospects/draft picks and it made me think....why don't MLB teams trade players for draft picks like they do in the NFL/NBA. you NEVER hear about a team trading a given draft pick, just for prospects that they already have in their farm system. Thanks

 

A: Brewers Mailbag - Because draft picks of so coveted, and I imagine most teams would like a prospect instead of a draft pick that might never pan out. Trading away picks is bad for teams because then how else do they replenish the farm?

[jhart05]

I read those things. SOME of those people that post are complete idiots and deserve a beat down.

 

I don't like the JS either. Never buy the thing. About the only thing it's good for would be lining the inside of a bird cage, and since I don't like pets in my house, I have no use for the JS.

[Oldcity]

Wow, that Witrado draft pick question has me dumbfounded. TH is uptight and unprofessional, but Witrado makes him look like a Pulitzer winner.

[dhoffman19]

Anyways, I was reading the mailbag from yesterday and I saw this Q/A with Anthony Witrado. I find it crazy that the beat reporter doesn't know that you can't trade draft picks. How many other things do you thinks he guesses on?

Yeah, I noticed that this morning as well. Way to stay informed, AW. If you don't know the answer, don't make one up.

 

There's also this one:

 

Q: Bob of Whitefish Bay - Why do the Brewers hang their shirts out after a win?

 

A: Brewers Mailbag - Because the game is over. Not any real reason to it. It's just something they do. Kinda like why Sabathia and Cameron wear their hats the way they do.

Didn't Cameron say it's a tribute to his dad, who did the same thing when he came home at night? Not a big deal obviously, but you'd think a beat writer would know that.

(pared back long quote --1992)

[rluzinski]

We have two separate issues. One, the quality of Tom's reporting. Two, the way Tom conducts himself when interacting with the public. On the first point, I think that the quality of his articles are very poor. His analysis of the team and its players is generally poor and riddled with personal bias. I don't mean to suggest that he should be using advanced metrics but when he concludes that an offense averaging over 5.2 runs/game isn't doing anything special, there's a problem.

 

As for his people skills, I can't begin to imagine acting that way while representing my employer. Yes, he has to deal with morons but often enough, he's the biggest troll on his own blog!

[Mike Felder]

Clearly, the best solution is to start sending his stuff into firejoemorgan.com and let them have at him. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

My lasting memory of TH is him referring to OPS as "bull" when discussing Branyan with someone a few years ago. That right there tells me that he's not the best man for the job.

[TooLiveBrew]

Hey -- he just calls 'em like he sees 'em. *pukes*

 

 

Wow, that Witrado draft pick question has me dumbfounded. TH is uptight and unprofessional, but Witrado makes him look like a Pulitzer winner.

 

Ladies & gentlemen, your Brewers beat-writing duo -- where "Uptight & Unprofessional" is the best option!

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Guys, the Journal is a pretty bad paper and it's written for 4th graders.

Last time I checked, I was 24 years old with a college degree and I enjoy the Journal Sentinal. Also, I believe Tom Handricourt has at least a journalism degree from a college or university so I doubt his writing is at a 4th grade level. I could be wrong though.

 

Two, the way Tom conducts himself when interacting with the public

That is correct. He probably didnt handle himself correctly here, but he is human and I'll give him a pass for this one. Everyone makes mistakes and he didn't make it in his newspaper so that prompts me to give him a pass. Blogs are different story than newspapers.

[tristarscoop]

As for his people skills, I can't begin to imagine acting that way while representing my employer. Yes, he has to deal with morons but often enough, he's the biggest troll on his own blog!

I don't want to completely flip this discussion, but I feel like this is the point that gets ignored about Ned Yost.

I would even argue that Tom H's handling of this situation is not that different from how Ned handles press conferences. And a lot of people have said it doesn't bother them that Ned is like that. It seems like a double-standard. Why is it ok for Ned, but not for Tom H?

 

[pretendastronaut]

>That is correct. He probably didnt handle himself correctly here, but he is human and I'll give him a pass for this one. Everyone makes mistakes and he didn't make it in his newspaper so that prompts me to give him a pass. Blogs are different story than newspapers.

 

I have a hard time calling it a mistake. This is not the first time he's acted like this. He now has, I believe, 4 increasingly insulting messages in that blog post alone.

I don't read TH outside of the blog, or the JS, so I can't really comment on the quality of the reporting, but I do think its ridiculious that he is allowed to treat customers that way. Yes, there are people who are mean-spirited to him in the comments, but he looks no better in stooping to that level. I can't imagine the JS would be willing to interview someone who interacts that way with people, but they allow someone on their staff to do it.

[Godspeed]

Don't ever cross the almighty Tom:

you don't know squat about blogs. What you know about journalism and blogs would fit into a thimble with lots of room for my thumb.

Not only is a supreme master of journalism, but now he knows everything there is to know about blogs. Get off your high horse, dude.

If he had half the dedication to the subject in which he covers as he does in defending his biased comments in a fit of misplaced rage and unabashed fury, maybe his product would be remotely readable.