Jim Caple's article on CP: "The Most Overrated Position in Sports"

[TooLiveBrew]

Linkage

 

 

This is a great read, and definitely tackles a topic we discuss often here at BF. Caple refers to a SABR study done by Dave Smith (linked in the article).

 

 

Also was pointed to (not from the article) this article by John Dewan on closer usage. Here's how it starts:

 

"Does it seem to you, like it seems to me, that the only way managers use their closers these days is to start the ninth inning?"

[Big Cat Dad]

solid article and good analysis. Someone email this article to Yost....however, I'm not sure he can read.

[And That]

Someone email this article to Yost....however, I'm not sure he can read.

What does this article have to do with Yost? Please keep the wanton Yost bashing in the Vent/Yost threads.

 

[TooLiveBrew]

You know, the interesting part is that Yost is one just 8 managers in the second article I linked that had, through August 1st, used his closer in 2 or more "tough saves" (as defined by Dewan: "Here are the managers who use their closer most often in the toughest situations (enters the game with the tying run on base)... Minimum 10 saves")

 

endaround's favorite Manny Acta, along with Fredi Gonzalez, Cecil Cooper, Terry Francona, Dave Trembley, Bruce Bochy, & Bob Geren round out said list.

[Big Cat Dad]

And That wrote: What does this article have to do with Yost? Please keep the wanton Yost bashing in the Vent/Yost threads.

Sorry for the Yost bash. It just seems like he's so "by the book" with his bull pen. I've also seen him stubbornly stick with starting pitchers in the 5th to "earn the W". His use of Mota as the "set-up" man etc. This article is Yost to a T in my opinion. Again....sorry about the bash.

[Thurston Fluff]

Nice find TLB. I think the closer role is overrated but, as Beane mentioned, if you don't have one it looks worse than it really is. It's sort of the same as lineups. Even though all of us know the order of hitters in the lineup has relatively little effect on the outcome of the game we all argue who should go where and think the manager is an idiot if he places a guy one spot too far up or down the lineup. I'm not talking we all as in the brewer fans mind you. I think it's fans for every team who gripe about every manager's lineup card or how they really need a closer.

I'm every bit as guilty of that as anyone. I hated the pitcher batting 8th even though I knew it had little to no effect on the game.

[TooLiveBrew]

Kudos to Mariners manager Jim Riggleman, who's been managing the 9th inning like every other inning lately. He certainly hasn't appeared to have a set '__th inning guy', and just plays to the most favorable matchup.

[danzig6767]

I completely agree with the basis of the article

 

With that said, i do think it's very important to have a strong back end of the bullpen if you have a contending team, not just a closer though. Look at the Cardinals, the only reason we aren't behind them right now is their late innings bullpen guys have gagged away so many games.

 

Here is another piece about closers and K-Rod

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=krod/080805&sportCat=mlb

[owbc]

Solid article, says everything and way more than what I thought about this beforehand.

 

I'm glad Yost is willing to bring Torres in during the 8th inning to get out of jams, but I wish he would be willing to push the envelope a little more and use him in the 7th or even 6th inning if we need help getting out of a major jam. If there was ever a manager who would completely ignore all of his critics and get rid of the closer, it's Yost. But in order for that to happen, it would probably take a few blown saves from Torres, which would result in some demented situation where Gagne and Torres are used in key middle/late inning situations and Shouse somehow becomes the 9th inning guy. Our bullpen has done a solid job lately and everyone got at least 2 days in a row off again, so I doubt there will be any changes at this point.

[logan82]

obsessedwithbrewcrew wrote:

If there was ever a manager who would completely ignore all of his critics and get rid of the closer, it's Yost.

I doubt that. Yost, like many other managers, has shown that he will change closers if one isn't working out, but I doubt that he would completely go away from having a set closer for very long.(I think he said he was going to closer by committee earlier this year, but that didn't last long until he settled on Torres.)

 

As far as Yost using Torres in the 8th quite a bit, I think that really has more to do with Yost's perception of Torres than any real change in philosophy. I think Yost sees Torres as more of a multi inning guy than our closers from previous years.(Cordero, Turnbow, Kolb)

 

 

Edit: By the way, here are all the saves from last year. Does not include blown saves.

 

[adambr2]

I've said it before, I'll say it again, closers are extremely overrated. I was never in favor of us re-signing Cordero, and I'm glad he didn't take us up on 4 years, $42 million. I think in 2 years when Cordero isn't throwing 96 and his slider isn't breaking as hard, the Reds will wish they hadn't invested in him, either.

 

Cordero hasn't been that good for the Reds this year -- certainly not what they paid for him, anyway. His ERA is respectable at best, his WHIP is pretty bad (around 1.50), and he's 22 for 28 in save opportunities. He certainly hasn't been as good as Torres.

 

It's nice to have a stopper, but if a mid-market club is going to invest that kind of money over 4 years in one, he had better be Mariano Rivera in his prime.

 

We have had plenty of successes having early season auditions for closer with some potential candidates before someone nails down the spot and does a respectable job all year.

[owbc]

Here's a question for discussion: how would you change the definion of a "save" to make it better reflect the difficulty?

 

IMO, any situation where the tying or go-ahead run isn't at the plate should not be considered a save. However, I'm not sure of the best way to change the rule to reflect this--maybe saves should be given in some of the situations that currently result in a "hold".

[TooLiveBrew]

Part of the discussion or insight from the article is that save conversion percentages are drastically overrated. Without looking at either article, I think the point was made that even an 85% success rate shouldn't be viewed as great.

[reillymcshane]

This was a really good article. Who's saving the game - a reliever in the 8th inning getting out ludwick, pujuls and glaus, or the 'closer' who gets out Molina, Izturis and a pinch hitter (okay, maybe two pinch hitters, since there's no way Izturis is batting with you down in the ninth).

 

I will say that in the ninth inning, the closer is probably facing more situational substitutions - meaning the opposing manager (who is losing) is now doing anything possible to get runs. That means the right hander is perhaps suddenly facing two straight lefthanded pinch hitters in this situation - something that probably wouldn't have happened in the seventh inning - but now, in the ninth, with nothing left to lose, the manager is pulling out all the stops (as he should).

 

I think a key to a 'closer' - the ninth inning guy - is someone who can get out both righties and lefties at a good rate. Otherwise, you're susceptible to pinch hitters.