Importance of Defense at 1B -- underrated?

[Playing Catch]

It's not just that Lee saves would-be errors, but also would-be infield hits. I think nearly all difficult plays that the first baseman fails to scoop are ruled infield hits, not errors.

[jwill535]

There isnt a defender on this team that would rather have Fielder then Lee manning first. You also have to put wild throws that a first baseman comes off the bag for. That is one of Prince's biggest problems, once he is set it is hard for him to get out of his motion(see below) to go and get a wild throw. Like I said before, I would say fielding for 1st is over rated, especially with a good 2nd basemen behind you. Being able to save errors by players is what is important. Not only catching the ball but like a catcher keeping a bad throw in front of you to avoid advancement.

 

If you are wondering what I mean by motion, every time you are waiting for a throw(especially a closer play) you put you body into motion ala Geoff Jenkins leg kick while batting. You are lounging forward and have to be able to adjust into the splits(which I can still do at 30 toot toot) while at the same time judging the path of the throw. Not all guys throw laser beams like Hardy or Furcal. Guys that throw side arm(see Weeks), the ball tends to tail or curve. They are hard to catch.

[Ennder]

Defense is pretty much underrated at every position. There is a reason that Oakland has the best defensive metrics in baseball, that is where the value is in the market right now. Swap the Cubs and Brewers defensively and we'd be 5 games up in the division instead of them.

yeah but would that be due to improved defense or because our new lineup scores .75 more runs a game than the old lineup?

 

 

I'm talking just swap the overall defense. I think if you swapped our two defenses we'd be the team that was 5 up and not the Cubs. That is the biggest difference between the two teams.

[holybannana]

First base is the least important defensive position. They have to catch a ball. They do some fielding but overall it's a weak defensive position. Anyone can play first,

[endaround]

I'm talking just swap the overall defense. I think if you swapped our two defenses we'd be the team that was 5 up and not the Cubs. That is the biggest difference between the two teams.

Not even close. The Cubs as a team have hit .271/.357/.447. The Brewers have have only Fielder who gets on at a better clip then .357 They've scored 80 runs more than the Brewers for a reason.

 

[jwill535]

First base is the least important defensive position. They have to catch a ball. They do some fielding but overall it's a weak defensive position. Anyone can play first,

That is an up surd comment. Yes you can hide a player at first or even in left field, but to say anyone can play the position is flat out wrong. Its take alot of practice, just like catching, to know how and what to do with throws. You can even look at the simplest forms and look at softball. There is a big difference in teams that have a good 1st basemen vs ones that just put any one there. Again fielding isnt the problem, it is catching, staying on the bag, keeping the ball in front of you. You can the 2nd catcher on the team except that you don't have the equipment to protect you from balls being thrown just as hard.

 

[1992casey]

"That is an up surd comment." crosses the condescension line.

[jhart05]

"That is an up surd comment." crosses the condescension line.

 

 

Again as a former firstbaseman, I take offense to the original comment. I could argue it was condescending to us firstbasemen. Heck, I could say, "anyone" can play "any" position. But can they play it well enough to help the team, or are they hurting the team being there.

 

There are a lot of little things a good firstbaseman does to help out his team, that don't show up in any stats or can't be calculated.

 

Besides just having a good stretch, you also have to know when to stretch for the ball. You stretch too soon and you're probably going to be out of position to catch the ball.

 

I think simple piece of mind helps a ton as well. The other infielders knowing all they have to do is get the ball over there somewhere (within reason) and their firstbaseman is going to catch everything no matter where it is.

[Sundown Kid]

Anyone can play first base, as Prince Fielder proves day after day. But not everyone can play the position well, again as Prince Fielder proves day after day. Sure, teams try to hide their weakest defender at the position. You don't have to run any distances as outfielders do. You have fewer difficult chances than the other infield positions do, and most of all you seldom have to throw. So when you play in the NL and you're a butcher with the glove, or physically resemble Buddha, you play first base.

 

None of the above should suggest, however, that first base is not an important position. Due to his limitations--including a significant height disadvantage that he can do nothing about--it would seem obvious that the error totals for Hall, Hardy, Weeks, etc. are higher than they would be if the Brewers had a Derek Lee or a J.T. Snow at first. Or even Lyle Overbay. I have no statistics at the ready to prove what follows, but I was impressed with Fielder's defensive improvement last season. I thought that he had progressed from being the guy in Bull Durham who needed a chicken to becoming a below-average defensive first baseman. Not even average, but below average--which given his offensive capabilities will be sufficient. This season I think he's regressed. The question in future seasons will be how much defense can the Crew sacrifice for Fielder's offensive contributions. In the meantime, we'll live with the knowledge that every Rickie Weeks throw in the dirt will result in an error. And we'll cringe every time Fielder even looks to throw to second base. And when high throws pull Fielder off the bag, I'll remember the Richie Sexson era with fondness.

[joepepsi]

I'm talking just swap the overall defense. I think if you swapped our two defenses we'd be the team that was 5 up and not the Cubs. That is the biggest difference between the two teams.

Not even close. The Cubs as a team have hit .271/.357/.447. The Brewers have have only Fielder who gets on at a better clip then .357 They've scored 80 runs more than the Brewers for a reason.

 

Bingo. There is nothing more beautiful in baseball than a great defensive play. But, as I noted previously in this topic, for a good as the Cubs' defense is, Brewer opponents score only .35 runs more a game than Cub opponents. That difference is as much attributable to Cub pitchers striking out an extra batter a game compared to Brewer pitchers, as it is to any defense prowess.

 

The main difference is the Cubs score .75 more runs a game than the Brewers. The Cubs are a very good offensive team and the Brewers are about average. The difference between an good offense and an average offense is much more significant than the difference between good and average defense.

 

[Ennder]

I'm talking just swap the overall defense. I think if you swapped our two defenses we'd be the team that was 5 up and not the Cubs. That is the biggest difference between the two teams.

Not even close. The Cubs as a team have hit .271/.357/.447. The Brewers have have only Fielder who gets on at a better clip then .357 They've scored 80 runs more than the Brewers for a reason.

 

 

You can't look at it like this though because you are ignoring what actually happened and keying in on the stats behind what happened. The Cubs W1 is 11.7 higher than the Brewers but the reality is only 5 extra wins. So yeah while they scored 80 more runs than us on the year it hasn't translated into the amount of wins you would have expected.

 

But yeah my numbers were off anyway, there is no way the difference in defense was 10 games and our defense hasn't been as bad as last year. In my head I was thinking what I said meant a swing of 5 games instead of 10. Last year the difference statistically was about 50 runs which meant roughly 100 runs after you swap them which is roughly 9-10 wins. This year the difference is more like 20 runs which is 40 runs after you swap them and about 4 wins.

 

If you kept everything else that happened this year the same and just swapped the team defense most likely the Cubs would have about 2 more losses and the Brewers would have about 2 more wins, a swing of 4 games.

[DHonks]

Fielder with a pathetic effort on Hardy's tough throw in the 9th tonight. Man, Sexson was almost a foot taller than Prince, yet he got far lower on throws in the dirt. Sure it was a tough throw, but Prince didn't even touch the ball...he whiffed it under his glove.

[trwi7]

Fielder with a pathetic effort on Hardy's tough throw in the 9th tonight. Man, Sexson was almost a foot taller than Prince, yet he got far lower on throws in the dirt. Sure it was a tough throw, but Prince didn't even touch the ball...he whiffed it under his glove.

 

 

He also had a chance to pick Milledge off but he threw it right into his back and it ended up going as a stolen base.

[jhart05]

I could say a good firstbaseman catches Sabathia's throw in the 9th as well.

[TooLiveBrew]

Let me first say that I don't disagree with any of the criticisms of Fielder's defense. However, I find it interesting that people aren't as up-in-arms about that criticism as some were when posters were discussing Braun's less than stellar OBP skills. In neither case is it people just looking to criticize; both players have those warts at this point.

[trwi7]

Let me first say that I don't disagree with any of the criticisms of Fielder's defense. However, I find it interesting that people aren't as up-in-arms about that criticism as some were when posters were discussing Braun's less than stellar OBP skills. In neither case is it people just looking to criticize; both players have those warts at this point.

 

Speaking for myself I have criticized pretty much the whole team for the lack of drawing walks, Braun included.

[danzig6767]

I certainly would like to see Braun walk more, it's easily the biggest weakness in his game. With that said, i gotta admit that when runners are on base in close games, i generally would prefer he not get walked unless he swings at complete garbage.

 

He's such a good hitter, i wonder how great his stats would be if he got more counts in his favor? Then again, there have been many times where he K's on a terrible pitch way off the plate and i yell at the TV saying, why the hell are you swinging at that. The next at bat, he hacks at a pitch high and off the plate, such a terrible pitch nobody should be able to make solid contact, yet Braun jacks it into the gap for say a double that scores two runs. Outside of Vlad, i can't remember a player offhand that hits balls harder that are way out of the strike zone.

[phxMILWfan]

After reading so many comments about how many errors Lee has saved Ramirez I just wanted to throw this out there. How many errors did Braun have that Fielder didn't help? Is it possible that another year or two and having a great first baseman would have been enough to keep Braun as our every day third baseman? I appoligize for not having researched this as to how many of his errors were throwing but I seem to remember that most of his errors were throwing. As a college shortstop he always seemed to be able to field well enough it was the throw to first. If Overbay were playing 1B I just have to wonder if we have our every day third baseman for the next ten years in Ryan Braun.

[TheCrew07]

Earlier in his career Prince would stretch at the guy throwing the ball, before he let the ball go, which caused many problems with the more inaccurate arms on the team. I thought he's improved that aspect of his game in last 2 years, he actually streches at the throw now instead of the guy fielding the ball. However, he still can't dig balls out of dirt and it boggles my mind how often he's makes the force out at 1B into a tag. I stayed pretty quiet about the play at the time because I didn't see any resolution to that debate (matter of opinion more than fact) and focused more on discussing the ACL injury to Yo, but I feel strongly that Prince had no business diving on that play in Chicago. That play may have cost the team a top of the rotation starter next year, as LaPorta and PTBNL could have been moved in a deal for younger stud pitcher, or LaPorta could have been an adequate replacement for Prince at 1B if he would have been moved for pitching.

 

Normally I'm not a woulda, coulda, shoulda kind of guy, but I have a hard time getting past that one play. The one thing for me personally that makes the play tolerable in a way was that Prince was selling out to make something happen, he was giving max effort. It just wasn't a good idea, I was actually yelling at him (because you know he can hear me through the TV) until Yo landed, then I got quiet in a hurry. In my opinion it's not a smart play and Prince's effort has nothing to do with it, in the same way that Billy's efforts on the bases having nothing to do with his poor base running instincts when he's making outs. Too often those plays around 1B turn into an adventure and I find myself holding my breath waiting for something else bad to happen.

 

I should add that Prince has made some real nice plays this year, he's just too inconsistent defensively for my taste.

[logan82]

phxMILWfan wrote:

If Overbay were playing 1B I just have to wonder if we have our every day third baseman for the next ten years in Ryan Braun.

Braun was pretty bad by almost every measure that they have for fielders so I doubt a better 1B would have made much difference. He might have gone from historically bad to horrible.

[TooLiveBrew]

Normally I'm not a woulda, coulda, shoulda kind of guy, but I have a hard time getting past that one play.

 

The player to blame is not Johnson, and not Fielder, but Gallardo. Not simply getting out of the way of that play, let alone trying to hop over it, was a poor decision by Yovani.

[logan82]

TooLiveBrew wrote:

The player to blame is not Johnson, and not Fielder, but Gallardo. Not simply getting out of the way of that play, let alone trying to hop over it, was a poor decision by Yovani.

There is no reason for Gallardo to be on the other side of the first baseline unless he is going into the dugout.

[Darnell Junior]

Last night the error by Sabathia and the botched double play ball by Hardy both would have been caught by an average first baseman. He should have switched from the fair side of the foul line to the foul side and reach for Sabathia's ball and he didn't even get a glove on relatively easy shorthop from Hardy. It didn't end up hurting us but I'm just saying.