Importance of Defense at 1B -- underrated?

[Playing Catch]

I saw a poll in JSOnline about who one would rather have at first base, Fielder or Lee. This got me to thinking about how much better Lee is in the field. Now, I know that quantifying defense based on statistics can be sketchy, so I wanted to know what people think about how important a good defensive first baseman is. The assumption for years was that a team should put its worst defenders at first base, however, watching what Mientkiewicz did for those Twins teams that were built around defense, and watching what Lee does for the Cubs makes me question that belief. I'm not saying that the Brewers should put J.J. over at first or anything, I'm just saying that when comparing first basemen specifically, I think that defense should not be such an afterthought. I actually wonder if first base is a much more premium defensive position than third, considering how many more touches the first baseman gets.

 

What do you think?

[brewizard]

If there were more lefties than righties batting in the league, then yes, first base D would be much more important. But since the majority of batters are righties...

[bball123h]

Knowing little about defensive metrics, I wonder if "scoopability" ever comes in to play for first basemen. The error always goes to the thrower, but it really seems like Prince is beyond subpar at digging balls out of the dirt. Thus, hurting the defense while probably having no effect on his defensive statistics.

[homer]

I think it depends on how good your first baseman is offensively. That is, can he overcome his defensive deficiencies by hitting the bejeebus out of the ball and producing more runs than his D gives up.

[logan82]

All of our infielders except for JJ are poor defenders. Having a bad 1B multiplies those problems.

[Playing Catch]

The "scoopability" question is the one that intrigues me most. Those Twins teams, 2002 for example, led the AL in fewest errors and fielding percentage. Simply based on watching those teams, it seemed to me that Mientkiewicz was scooping balls in the dirt on a daily basis. Perhaps my perception was warped by the number of times those teams popped up on highlight reels, but I don't think so. I think that Mientkiewicz's defense, all-around great, but specifically his high "scoopability index" made that team excellent defensively.

[Gobias Industries]

I'd probably take Lee over Fielder because their offense is somewhat similiar, but no chance with a no-hit, all glove guy like Doug M or JT Snow. A guy like that would be nice to have on the bench for a close game in the 9th for Fielder though.

 

I think 1B defense is underrated, as I've seen Lee save Aramis Ramirez 3 or 4 errors in just Brewers games this year.

[jjfanec]

I would say a good defensive first baseman is really underrated by many. I love watching Derek Lee because it just seems like he digs out so many throws. I actually watched some of the Cubs game yesterday with a Cubs fan, and after Lee dug out a ball he began to talk about how many plays like that he made a year. He said that Lee basically saved Ramirez from 15 or more errors his first year on the team. This guy is a really smart baseball guy, so I take him at his word. Prince's recent hot streak has made his number better than Lee's offensively, but from just the naked eye Lee's defense seems drastically better so I am not sure who I would rather have. Lee's ability to dig, his range, and his length all huge assets and he saves his fellow infielders errors and his pitcher from throwing more pitches and pitching with runners on base.

[jwill535]

As someone who has played the position for 20 years I can tell you that it is very underrated. Digging and stretching come into play more then fielding does. If you are good at digging and having the ability to stretch will save more runs then your ability to field ground balls. I am not devaluing fielding in general just when it compares to digging and stretching for a 1st baseman.

[yount19.u]

I agree that 1B defense is underrated. If Prince were on the Cubs, I'm guessing they'd have a few more loses just due to the extra errors that he would be unable to save the team from. I don't think Ramirez is a good defensive 3B at all and Lee makes him look ok. I think Fielder is maybe average to slightly below average on defense, but the gap between his game and Lee's, I'm sorry to say, is huge at 1B. Lee is probably the best defensive 1B I have seen. Any other excellent 1B defenders present or past anyone can think of?

[rluzinski]

I don't think Fielder's defense is even close to average and it doesn't help that he's only 5'11". If he doesn't have a .900 OPS with a good OBP, he might not even be average, overall.

 

That's the problem with guys like Weeks and Durhan. They better have well above average offensive stats for a 2B or they are below average overall.

[jhart05]

Also being a former firstbaseman, I eco jwill535's comments.

 

A good firstbaseman, can eliminate potential base hits with a good stretch, and eliminate errors by other fielders with a good scoop. Plus a good scoop can help ease a fielders mind, knowing they don't have to make a perfect throw every time. So if they do need to hurry their throw, they're probably still going to get the out, even if they throw one in the dirt. I always told my infield, just get it in my general direction and I'll take care of the rest.

 

Prince is well below what I would consider "average". If I were grading him in APBA baseball, I'd give him a 2, maybe a borderline 3.

 

 

Any other excellent 1B defenders present or past anyone can think of?

 

Keith Hernandez, Don Mattingly, and I would even say Cecil Cooper. Albert Pujols has worked very hard at his defense and has turned himself into one of the best in the game today.

 

Those are just a few that come to mind.

[monty57]

Living in Illinois, I watch a fair share of Cubs games. It seems that Lee saves about an error a game from Ramirez' throws. Aramis has become a decent "glove" but still makes a lot of bad throws. On any other team, I don't have any doubts that he would easily lead the league in errors.

[Fatter than Joey]

Any other excellent 1B defenders present or past anyone can think of?

 

Hernandez was the best when I was a kid. Steve Garvey was over rated, but very good -- Wes Parker was great as well...

 

I'm surprised no one mentioned the Boomer -- Probably the best in the AL when he played for the Brewers.

[JoeHova]

If anything, I think 1st base defense is overrated still. People have turned around and started claiming that guys like Kotchman are well-above average players because they play good defense. The best SS in the world can't make up for a lost 20 points of OPS+ with defense, how can a 1st baseman?

[TooLiveBrew]

It's underrated if someone says 'it doesn't matter'. Clearly it does, but those much smarter & better informed than me about baseball rank it, along with LF, the two least impactful defensive positions.

[joepepsi]

Living in Illinois, I watch a fair share of Cubs games. It seems that Lee saves about an error a game from Ramirez' throws. Aramis has become a decent "glove" but still makes a lot of bad throws. On any other team, I don't have any doubts that he would easily lead the league in errors.

Of course you don't mean Ramirez would make 162 errors a year if it weren't for Lee!?!?!

 

Here's the problem for me folks. I can't find any proof the difference between Lee and Fielder is all that great. Certainly observation tells us Lee is much better, but I can't find anything to show me difference has cost the Brewers any games. To suggest the Cubs would have 2 or 3 more losses if Prince were their 1B is very close to insinuating he's the reason the Brewers aren't in first place right now.

 

Bearing in mind defensive stats are an imperfect science, here's some interesting figures:

Errors: Fielder 9(.991 fldg pct); Lee 8 (.992 fldg pct.)

Putouts: Fielder 972; Lee 874

DPs: Fielder 89; Lee 74

Total Errors by 2B, SS, 3B: Brewers 42 (20 at 3B); Cubs 33 (11 at 3B)

 

So can we really assume Lee has save Ramirez 9 throwing errors that Prince hasn't saved for his 3rd basemen? Roll the videotape I guess, and we'll find out.

 

It is worth pointing out the Cubs' pitchers have 100+ more strikeouts than Brewer pitchers (890 vs. 777). And the Brewers have given up 47 unearned runs while the Cubs only 35.

 

It's possible the Cubs and Lee in particular are much better defensively than the Brewers. But to what extent it makes a difference is difficult to say. The Cubs give up 4.10 runs a game, the Brewers 4.45. But the Cubs score 5.34 runs a game while the Brewers score 4.65. Defense is important, but the disparity between the Brewers' and Cubs' defenses isn't as great as between their offenses. If you switched their runs allowed numbers the Brewers would probably have only one, possibly two additional wins. If you switched their runs scored per game numbers the Brewers would probably in first place by 5 games.

 

While it's great to have wonderful defense and sucks to have average defense, I'm not convinced it makes all that much difference. At least not as much as the difference between a great vs. average offense.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Those are some good numbers put into the argument, but one flaw in that is you are using errors and we all know how reliable the error stat is in general. If a Double Play isn't turned because of a dropped ball by the 1B, that is not an error and a lot of plays are ruled as infield hits where they could have been outs. There is definitely a lot of substance to your argument though and I mostly agree with it.

 

I did enjoy Prince's web gem against the Braves on Sunday where he leaped up and caught the ball and doubled up the guy at 2B, so he has shown he can make some plays. I think concentration and focus plays a lot into Prince's defense as well. If he puts the work in, his defense can be average, but he doesn't have the talent or body type to be able to play good defense with a lot less effort like some guys do like Derrek Lee and others. Prince makes 1B look hard, while guys like Lee and Helton make it look easy.

 

Prince is going to be a DH for an AL team in the very near future anyways, but he has been serviceable defensively, at least in his short stint for the Brewers.

[JET15]

I'll keep pimping win shares for these sorts of arguments. I've sorted them by fielding, and you can see Lee is tops in the NL, but there are three ahead of him by quite a bit in the AL including Oooooooo this year. And, you can easily conclude that Prince's bat makes up for the minor delta in fielding between him and Lee.

 

Lee has had some incredible plays against us at first and his height really does seem to help him a lot, but he is very agile for a guy his size. It's hard not to wish we had him when you see that stuff. Objectively, however, he does not stack up.

[monty57]

No, of course Ramirez wouldn't have 162 errors... it just seems like it, as he has a very erratic arm. I'm sure other 1B would save many of the throws, but I'd guess Lee's saved well over 10 errors on throws that someone like Fielder wouldn't be able to stretch to get or simply wouldn't dig. Of course, Ramirez may rush his throws, knowing that Lee will make the play, thereby getting outs he wouldn't otherwise get if he had to slow down and make sure the throw was right on target. This is why defensive stats will never be that accurate, there are too many things that can't be put into a calculator.

 

I dislike the Cubs, but Lee is an amazing fielder and is fun (but discouraging) to watch. In addition to saving errors, he turns a lot of doubles/triples down the line into outs. We get really excited when we see Prince make a jumping grab like he did the other day. Lee makes seemingly impossible plays all the time.

 

Alright, that's enough of the Cub love before I make myself sick.

[valpocrewsader]

Knowing little about defensive metrics, I wonder if "scoopability" ever comes in to play for first basemen.

Stats companies do keep track of scoop percentage. In 2006, the numbers I saw had Prince dead last in the Majors (out of 27 qualified) at 63.6%, leage average was 80.5% (Overbay), and Helton was tops at 93%. Number of attempts was generally in the 40 to 70 range.

 

I think Prince's bad fielding/stretching/scooping is too easily overlooked.

[yount19.u]

I don't think the Brewers would necessarily gain more victories with Lee over Fielder. From the many games I watch of both teams, the Brewers third basemen of Hall, Branyan and Counsell all have more accurate arms than Ramirez in my opinion. Fielder has the easier job of fielding throws from the hot corner that Lee due to the frequent errant throws from Ramirez. The Cubs do gain much in Lee over Fielder, though, as he is able to grab nearly anything thrown near him, regardless of bad hops or in between bounces. It's nothing against Fielder, as I don't think his picking ability is that bad, it's just that Lee's is so good. If Lee cannot control a couple of those bad throws he normally does from third base each week, added up over a season, I'm sure there would be a couple of games where the error changed the momentum, or allowed a winning run to score.

[joepepsi]

Those are some good numbers put into the argument, but one flaw in that is you are using errors and we all know how reliable the error stat is in general. If a Double Play isn't turned because of a dropped ball by the 1B, that is not an error and a lot of plays are ruled as infield hits where they could have been outs.

Yup, I know. Defensive stats kinda stink. Still Prince has been party to more DPs than Lee. In part because Cubs' pitchers average about one extra K a game, Lee has had fewer chances at 1B, made fewer putouts and fewer assists. Still, the Cubs have surrendered 40 fewer runs than the Brewers. It's possible some of the difference lies with the Prince. I suspect much of the difference is due to Cub pitching staff that strikes out many more hitters.

[Ennder]

Defense is pretty much underrated at every position. There is a reason that Oakland has the best defensive metrics in baseball, that is where the value is in the market right now. Swap the Cubs and Brewers defensively and we'd be 5 games up in the division instead of them.

[joepepsi]

Defense is pretty much underrated at every position. There is a reason that Oakland has the best defensive metrics in baseball, that is where the value is in the market right now. Swap the Cubs and Brewers defensively and we'd be 5 games up in the division instead of them.

yeah but would that be due to improved defense or because our new lineup scores .75 more runs a game than the old lineup?