Brewer 3B Options For The Rest of The Year

[TooLiveBrew]

Yost is probably just giving Counsell a good amount of AB's because he wants to send a message that he's still a big part of this team and over time, Branyan will probably get a lot more starts at 3B than Counsell will in the remaining games so this discussion is probably moot.

 

This is why I'm concerned. If anything, Yost has proved that he defies logic (and not in a good way) when it comes to lineup/playing time decisions. I don't think it's a moot point at all. The no-brainer part to me is letting Russ face RHP 'everyday', Hall lefties 'everyday' & getting Counsell his PT in spot-starts at SS v. RHP & a once-in-a-blue-moon start v. RHP at 3B (basically when Branyan is fatigued), and in late-inning D replacement.

 

If Yost wants to 'send a message' by playing Counsell over superior options, what he's sending is that he'd rather his own pride be more important than the team. Counsell has plenty of roles: spot-starting for Hardy, PH option, late-inning defensive replacement. Any more than that & we're sacrificing the best chance to win for Yost's unpredictable whims.

[danzig6767]

The is off topic, but am i the only one who wonders why teams don't play a sizable defensive shift when Counsell bats?

 

Unless i'm blind and have terrible retention ability, it sure seems to me that Craig is a big time pull hitter, even if it generally involves balls not traveling far that he hits. I started noticing it awhile ago and now whenever he bats, i watch where he hits the ball and it doesn't matter if the pitcher throws 99mph, he seems to pull nearly every ball he hits.

[endaround]

I really can't believe there is any discussion here. Counsell has a below replacement level bat for a short stop at this point. He is pretty much the embodiment of a replacement level player at 37, I mean we are talking about a guy who only hit decent for three seasons. Branyan's VORP is 10.6 as a 3B, Counsel's is -2.1 as a SS. If Counsell is now taking over at 3B we are talking almost 2 wins of difference over 2 months assuming about 100 PAs in a month.

[razzzorsharp]

In response to a CC shift, he could bunt to the third base side if that was the case.

[joepepsi]

But really, Yost doesn't deserve to get fried for going with defense and a contact hitter when his team is loaded with high power, high strikeout guys who can't play defense. It's good to mix and match those types of players. Granted, I hate Counsell in the 6 spot, but as a 1 or 2 hitter, he is very serviceable. It's also good to keep Counsell sharp and with the aquisition of Durham, he really doesn't have anymore opportunities to start at 2B.

If Counsell had any value in the first place it wouldn't have been necessary to acquire Durham.

 

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

If Counsell had any value in the first place it wouldn't have been necessary to acquire Durham.

That's not true. Counsell just doesn't have value as an everyday player. The reason we got Durham was becuase of Weeks, not Counsell. Counsell has a lot of value as a defensive sub and that's exactly what he's doing when he plays 3B every once in a while. I do think Branyan should be playing for the most part against RHP as I stated earlier, but starting Counsell here and there has its benefits. Especially in a hitters park like Cincinatti where we are going to be able to score runs with him in the lineup anyways, and of course we did so it was a smart move by Yost to go with defense when he was betting on the rest of the offense scoring a lot of runs in Great American Ballpark.

 

[sgtcluels]

The only thing I can think of, is that Yost is trying to add the desire for more small ball and thinks CC is the way to go. Someone who doesn't/can't swing for the seats every time.

 

That or, Yost picked up CC in a fantasy league, and to ensure he gets starts, he starts CC.

[cwolf2012]

I seriously think that the fact that Branyan has hit two "late-and-close" pinch hit homeruns is making him want to keep him as a pinch hitter only.

 

It's definitely the kind of logic I could see Ned using.

[monty57]

This question is for any of the SABR guys: Has sabermetrics gotten to the "econometrics phase" yet? Meaning, are there any studies as to how different types of players correlate while playing with other types of players?

 

By measuring purely by OPS, or seemingly any SABR category, players like Counsell are dwarfed offensively by most other players. However, it seems that teams built around a bunch of sluggers never seem to win much and tend towards being streaky... get no hit one day and score 10 runs the next. It would be interesting to see correlation studies done to determine what mix would bring the greatest rewards with least variance / risk. Economics really took off when they figured this out, and stopped looking at everything on a linear level. Likewise, I think it would revolutionize sabermetrics.

 

In reference to this thread, the Brewers are a lot of all slug, no discipline hitters. They probably have more raw offensive talent than the Cubs, but due to plate discipline, the Cubs have scored a lot more runs. Maybe Ned's simply trying to find one guy on the team that won't swing wildly every time a pitcher throws a fastball eye level.

[logan82]

Branyan and Hall still have better OBP than Counsell, especially if played in a platoon.

[joepepsi]

If Counsell had any value in the first place it wouldn't have been necessary to acquire Durham.

That's not true. Counsell just doesn't have value as an everyday player. The reason we got Durham was becuase of Weeks, not Counsell. Counsell has a lot of value as a defensive sub and that's exactly what he's doing when he plays 3B every once in a while. I do think Branyan should be playing for the most part against RHP as I stated earlier, but starting Counsell here and there has its benefits.

 

It was my understanding they were looking for another lefty bat on the bench with good on base skills. I don't think it was specifically to replace Weeks, but if it was then, once again, Counsell wasn't good enough to fill that void.

 

[rluzinski]

Craig Counsell:

 

2008: .232/.321/.311/.632

Since 2005: .238/.324/.326/.651

Last 2 starts: 0 for 9

 

Starting at 3B again today.

[DougJones43]

Counsell at 3B tonight again to face a RHP. Also, he is batting 6th again. That amazing homerun Branyan hit against the Cubs must've pissed Ned Yost off something fierce.

 

Horsey poo, if you ask me.

[TooLiveBrew]

A Bobby Knight quote comes to mind...

 

I know we spend too much time debating the lineup order, but this stuff from Ned is just... ugh. Inevitable. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Loopee]

Not only starting at 3rd...but in the 6 hole when Rickie is leading off.

 

Utter lunacy.

[logan82]

I am going to guess that Branyan broke Ned's coffee maker and has yet to replace it.

[rluzinski]

Counsell update:

 

.228/.319/.305/.624 (187 PA)

 

With another RHer going tonight, I look forward to our starting 3B having a SLG under .300 by the end of the game.

 

Yes, I'm still bitter.

[BrewCrewForever]

I am going to guess that Branyan broke Ned's coffee maker and has yet to replace it.

That very well could be it. What else could make Ned so mad at Russ as to bench him against RHP for Counsell? This charade has made me more upset them any of Ned's from this season. It makes no sense at all. And the worst part is not only does he start Counsell at 3B but he bats him 6th! How stupid.

 

[uecker9]

Any truth to the rumor that Ned's lobbying for contact hitter Tony Graffanino as a September call up?

 

Ned goes from platoon to menage-a-trois to all out orgy at 3rd base.

[dadofandrew]

As many point out, when you argue batting order, you're arguing semantics. There is no right or wrong batting order.

 

Next, Counsell has not started versus a LHP. Saying no platoon exists is incorrect, and does nothing.

 

As I will say for the final time, Counsell is a better defender than Branyan, and quite apparently, they are choosing to go with him because of his approach at the plate. Choosing to say he is 0-9 and using the tiniest sample available, and then saying Ned should not go with the hot hand...at best, is spinning in circles. I don't notice many line drive outs of late, so his leash is likely getting tight. However, as often occurs, I do find it ironic that many insist on saying the team should improve the defense, and then complaining every time they play the better defensive player.

 

You'll also see many folks saying Cameron is dragging the team down, yet not only has he been good defensively, he's outperformed Hart in the batter's box. This is far from the case with Craig, but you can also make the same case with Kendall, as they love the way he works his staff. Russell has also had many balls go off his glove or just past him at 3B.

 

I tend to feel it's a good idea to go with the best offensive lineup, as some guys won't see a single play all night. However, some will, though no one knows who. Counsell is a wonderful defender, who may have saved the game the other night, or at least a couple runs that may have changed the complexion of the game. Escobar will almost certainly replace Hardy at SS soon, and is very unlikely to match his offense, at least for a few years. Defense does have value, it is just difficult to measure.

[DougJones43]

Branyan is starting tonight! Woo hoo!

 

Also, I don't have the energy to dissect Al's post point-by-point, but still wanted to say that I disagree with just about everything in it. It's already been pointed out numerous times (which appear to have just been ignored), but if improved defense is what the Brewers are after, then Counsell should be playing 2B, not 3B, against RHP. The upgrade from Weeks to Counsell at a more important defensive position is much greater than the upgrade from Branyan to Counsell. Obviously, Branyan also hits RHP much better than Weeks.

 

Playing both Counsell at 3B and Weeks at 2B against RHP makes zero sense.

[gregmag]

Al, you make sound points in Counsell's defense, but I don't think they come close to justifying his playing time. He hasn't stunk offensively over a small sample; he has -- as Russ just pointed out -- stunk for years. I remember a big debate about whether Counsell's decline-phase offensive anemia should allow him to get starts over a young player who was struggling to establish himself in his first full season -- and the player was Bill Hall! I agree that defense is both important and difficult to measure, but those facts require us to make some bets at the margin. I simply can't imagine any metric by which the difference between Counsell's and Hall/Branyan's defense at 3b could come close to overcoming Hall/Branyan's monumental offensive superiority. To restate the argument in terms of offensive "approach" is just voodoo sabermetrics.

 

Greg.

[logan82]

Career VS RHP

Weeks .339/.393/.723

Branyan .334/.492/.826

Counsell .344/.351/.695

 

2005-2007

Weeks .346/.404/.750

Branyan .352/.496/.848

Counsell .337/.359/.696

 

Counting in defense, I think a good case could be made for Counsell over Weeks at 2B. Using just offense though, Weeks is a better option than Counsell even with the the match up advantage that Counsell should receive.

 

Edit: Sorry, I should say that I think it should be a straight Branyan/Hall platoon at 3B. I wouldn't be upset if the starts were 50/50 Branyan/Hall at 3B as long as most of Hall's starts were against LHP. Hall against a RHP now and then wouldn't be a bad thing especially for his future trade value.

[TooLiveBrew]

As I will say for the final time, Counsell is a better defender than Branyan, and quite apparently, they are choosing to go with him because of his approach at the plate. Choosing to say he is 0-9 and using the tiniest sample available, and then saying Ned should not go with the hot hand...at best, is spinning in circles.

 

What happened to your claim that his OBP is better?

 

Counsell's last 28 days (41 PA): .189/.244/.216/.460 -- Muy caliente!

 

You're the one cherry-picking, DoA. Cousell is a terrible option to have at the plate. The moderate edge he brings on defense doesn't even begin to address the embarrasingly huge gap in offense.

[trwi7]

I'm surprised Ned didn't start him tonight. Not only did he walk yesterday but he also struck out swinging sharply and reached first base due to grittiness and intangibles (and a wild pitch by Jesus Colome.) Ned can justify playing him by saying "Even when he makes outs he gets on base."