Braun's 3B Defense vs. Gamel's 3B Defense

[Buckhunts]

If Gamel ended the season at .320+, but made significant improvements in his defense (which he is making), I will be a happy camper. Remember, .320 would still be a .20 improvement over Brevard County. However, if you want to look at stats in Huntsville, check out the year David Welch is having. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy too!

[Ennder]

Brauns fielding metrics were historically bad last year and not just the errors, his range statistics were horrible as well. I think Gamel is our future 1B most likely. He might get a year or even two in the majors where he can butcher the 3B position but I still don't think we will re-sign Fielder and now that LaPorta is gone it seems like Gamel is the natural replacement.

[1992casey]

We're looking at a 103 ABs where Mat hit .243 in July. That can easily be written off as a small sample. Before being too concerned, we need to see what the rest of the season brings.

[TooLiveBrew]

Plus the warm summer months tend to inflate numbers, not supress them. It's just a struggle through a small sample imo. Nothing to get too concerned about.

 

 

"He seemed more comfortable going to his backhand than going to his left, which might not be too big an issue if Escobar continues to play to his left."

 

That's from the Kalk article. That's an interesting point, but it sounds like this was a 'seems like' based on watching one or two games. It does appear more likely that Mat will man 1B in Milwaukee.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

I've never had the pleasure of seeing Gamel play 3B in Huntsville, but I think we have 2 options here.

 

1) Let Gamel's bat play and start him at 1B in 2009 while getting value in a Prince trade

2) Let Gamel work out his defense in 2009 in Nashville and hope that he can iron out his defense.

 

Option 1 is great for the short term and would work out just fine if Gamel turns out to be a 900 OPS player. If Gamel is an 800 OPS player over the span of his 6+ years with the Crew, then he's nothing more than an average 1B depending on how his defense would be.

 

Option 2 is great for the long term ONLY if it works out. Otherwise we let Gamel get a year older, while not having him play as a Milwaukee Brewer. We would still control him for 6 years though so that's not a horrible result.

 

If I were Doug Melvin, I'd go with Option 1 because we need pitching next year and Prince is our best chance at that. If we can find pitching through other sources or miraculously sign C.C. or Sheets to a long term contract, we might have the flexibility to keep Prince for a few more years and let Gamel iron out his defense. I do think either decision will probably work out and it might be a win-win situation because a bat like that can play anywhere if he keeps his mashing up.

[GAME05]

my one real fear if we throw Gamel to 1st base is the message it sends not only to other teams, but to Fielder. other teams know we're ready to trade him like the Overbay situation, plus Fielder will no-doubt know he's gone--at least now it's still up in the air.

 

and if it's really just Gamel's throwing and not necessarily his fielding, you'd think he'd be able to make a pretty quick transition to 1st base.

[TheCrew07]

my one real fear if we throw Gamel to 1st base is the message it sends not only to other teams, but to Fielder. other teams know we're ready to trade him like the Overbay situation, plus Fielder will no-doubt know he's gone--at least now it's still up in the air.

I'm sorry but I'm confused by your post and I don't understand the "message"? If Fielder is traded and Gamel slides over to 1B it will happen in the off season and there won't be much forshadowing... one day Prince would be a Brewer, the next he wouldn't. Trading Fielder doesn't necessarily mean that Gamel slides over to 1B either. I would much rather trade Hardy, Fielder, Weeks, or Hall in a package for a young stud pitcher than sign another Suppanesque pitcher for the rotation. The only message it would send is that pitching and improved defense is more valuable to the Brewers than Fielder's offensive production. The Nati traded Hamilton for a young stud pitcher this off season and that deal has worked out pretty well for both sides.

 

Gamel's recent offensive woes don't worry me much, Don Money doesn't throw around praise lightly and the way he jumped all over comparing Gamel to Boggs, but with more power... well let's just say I'm a believer regardless what happens. As far as his defense goes, he's made good progress this season and now that he's sniffing the big leagues I would think he'd be more motivated to work on his defensive game. I'll be interested to see where he's at next season. The only thing that concerns me is that when he makes one error he gets the Yips and it seems to take a couple of weeks for him to settle down.

 

I think he starts next season in Nashville and we might see him as early as the end of June. It depends on how much progress he makes defensively and how badly the Brewers need his bat in the line up. This will be an interesting off season for sure.

[LUKE232323]

Is it safe to assume that if Fielder is still on the team throughout the end of next season, Gamel is playing either 3B or RF? It would obviously depend on whether or not we pick up Cameron's option. If we do not, I could see Hart moving to CF and putting Gamel in RF, and going with:

 

Weeks

Hardy

Braun

Fielder

Hart

Gamel

Hall

Kendall

 

Either way, I'd like to get one of the extremely low OBP, high K guys between Cameron/Hall out of the everyday lineup and get a higher OBP guy near the bottom of the order. Not that I'm thinking Gamel will bat .340 in the majors, but he should be able to get on base at a better clip than either of those guys, while having near comparable power.

[JJHardy7]

I guess part of the reason I brought this up is that if Gamel is to switch positions wouldn't it be better in the minors than learn on the job in the majors? I do think the Brewers have to decide on Mat before moving him up to AAA next year. I could see learning 1B on the job in the bigs, but learning the OF might have a big learning curve.

[And That]

Ryan Braun picked up left field pretty well, and they are pretty similar athletes. If the Brewers decide after next year that Gamel can't hack it at third, he'd have the AFL, maybe instructionals and all of spring training to make the switch to his new position. IMO, the only reason Gamel won't be playing 3B in AAA next year is if the Brewers trade for a long-term solution at third base who is already in the majors, say Alex Gordon.

[PrimeTime955]

Ryan Braun picked up left field pretty well, and they are pretty similar athletes. If the Brewers decide after next year that Gamel can't hack it at third, he'd have the AFL, maybe instructionals and all of spring training to make the switch to his new position. IMO, the only reason Gamel won't be playing 3B in AAA next year is if the Brewers trade for a long-term solution at third base who is already in the majors, say Alex Gordon.

You seem pretty convinced that he can stay at third and I trust your opinion over mine so let me ask you this. Would it hurt to at least let him take some balls in the outfield and at first base or just let him focus on third?

 

[And That]

Does it maybe send the wrong message to Mat if you start moving him around the diamond a lot in practice? He needs to get comfortable and get more confidence at third base... taking flies in RF and grounders at 1B might detract from that, IMO. Like I said... I think he'd take to an OF position or 1B pretty quickly. No need to get it in his head that the Brewers are already thinking of moving him. And I don't think they are.

 

Money and Iorg both seem convinced he can stick at third... while some of that might be organizational smoke blowing, I don't think they'd say it if they didn't believe it.

[JJHardy7]

I think he'd take to an OF position or 1B pretty quickly. No need to get it in his head that the Brewers are already thinking of moving him. And I don't think they are.

 

I understand what you're saying. I just hope that if Mat doesn't stick at 3B when he's called he's not horrible and has to move positions mid-year. I think he can stick at 3B if the Brewers are patient with him. Braun did have part of the off-season to get ready to adjust to the OF.

 

I also agree with you that it might be sending the wrong message if you have him take some fly balls in the OF. From everything I know he's not going to fail at 3B for a lack of effort.

[TooLiveBrew]

Money and Iorg both seem convinced he can stick at third... while some of that might be organizational smoke blowing, I don't think they'd say it if they didn't believe it.

 

Clearly the biggest spot of need for the Brewers related to Gamel is 3B. And while I agree that it's nice to hear those things, this is the organization that stated Ryan Braun would stick at 3B. I have my doubts, but since I haven't ever seen Gamel play, I obviously defer to those who have (& know a helluva lot more than me).

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

IMO, the only reason Gamel won't be playing 3B in AAA next year is if the Brewers trade for a long-term solution at third base who is already in the majors, say Alex Gordon.

That is definitely one scenario, but I'm going to disagree with you that it is the only one unless you know something I don't about how to solve our pitching situation in 2009.

 

So if you think Gamel will remain at 3B, do you think Prince will still be a Brewer next year? And if so, how do you see our starting rotation stacking up in 2009?

[JohnBriggs12]

If the Brewers didn't move Gamel after a season where he made 53 errors and recorded an .826 fielding percentage, they sure aren't going to move him after he's improved to 25 errors and a .919 fielding percentage through roughly the same number of games.

 

Obviously they agree with Buckhunts that he has the physical ability to play 3B and they hope with maturity he'll overcome the concentration (better word than mental) issues that have plagued him defensively in the past. They can't help but be encouraged by his improvement, especially recently.

[TheCrew07]

I'm not sure how trading Fielder automatically makes Gamel the 1B... he's biggest value is at 3B, which is why I think he'll start the year in AAA there. There's literally so many different trade options that it's difficult to speculate on any single one, but I really liked Rydogg's Fielder for Santana and Kotchman... that's my kind of deal. I've stated before I'm not even opposed to Brad Nelson playing there if the Crew can aquire a top flight starter.

[JohnBriggs12]

IMO, the only reason Gamel won't be playing 3B in AAA next year is if the Brewers trade for a long-term solution at third base who is already in the majors, say Alex Gordon.

That is definitely one scenario, but I'm going to disagree with you that it is the only one unless you know something I don't about how to solve our pitching situation in 2009.

 

So if you think Gamel will remain at 3B, do you think Prince will still be a Brewer next year? And if so, how do you see our starting rotation stacking up in 2009?

 

The pitching situation should not be solved by trading Fielder, the only reliable lefthanded bat in the lineup. They can resolve the pitching situation this way:

 

1. Sign a free agent like Derek Lowe. Better yet, steal Ryan Dempster away from Cubs.

 

2. Move Carlos Villanueva back into the rotation and this time show some patience. You think he doesn't have the stuff? Does Jorge Campillo?

 

3. Get Gallardo healthy.

 

4. Move at deadline next year for additional arm if needed.

[And That]

I don't think Fielder's future with the organization is inextricably linked to Gamel's role on the field. If Fielder is traded in the offseason, I doubt Gamel will be moved to first base just to fill his spot... Gamel won't be on the opening day roster next year anyway. Brad Nelson could fill in for Fielder, as could any number of guys not currently in the organization. Gamel is at his most valuable at third base, and they'll keep him there as long as possible.

 

Gamel's future at third may be more closely tied to what the Brewers decide to do with the Weeks/Hardy/Escobar triumvirate. If the team decides to keep both Weeks and Hardy long term around Escobar, Gamel would have to be shifted to another position (assuming Hardy slides over to third).

[TooLiveBrew]

The pitching situation should not be solved by trading Fielder

 

It'd be hard to see him go, that's for sure. I think he's our best & most talented hitter by a relatively wide gulf.

 

 

They can resolve the pitching situation this way:

 

1. Sign a free agent like Derek Lowe. Better yet, steal Ryan Dempster away from Cubs.

 

If the plan is to throw money at Derek Lowe or Ryan Dempster, I'd rather the Brewers just re-sign Sheets.

[DonMoney4Mgr]

I also agree that the Brewers will keep him in the minors to work on defense for as long as they can hold back his bat. This could be through 2009, or even longer.

 

This is insane. And this is why I am not that high on Melvin as a GM. The 93M dollar team that they are fielding is an average to below average hitting team. The nucleus, or core contributers, are; Hardy, Braun, Fielder, and Hart. All products of our minor leagues. All Melvin had to do was add some balance. Lefty/righty balance, and OBP/free swinging balance. Instead, his concern seemed balancing veterans with youth. Unfortunately, it has cost a ton of money for veterans that don't produce a lot.

 

Coudn't Hardy and fielder be considered veteran leaders right now, or do we need someone like Cameron and Counsel to "show them how the game should be played." I don't buy it. If Gamel can hit 300/380 OB in the majors, then that's where he should be IMO. The same could be said for players such as; Brantley and Salome as well.

 

He wasted a considerable amount on the bullpen as well. Mota vs. Dillard, Why? Why wasn't Balfour ever even given an opportunity with his stuff. Melvin overpays for veterans and doesn't utilize the farm system like he should. (See St. Louis Cardinals).

 

I know, I'm all over the place because I'm sick of losing, and I'm sick of bad GM decisions.

[TooLiveBrew]

Cameron was brought in because he's a good CF (same with Kendall at C), not for some 'veteran grittiness' factor. We already have enough in Counsell!

 

 

If Gamel can hit 300/380 OB in the majors, then that's where he should be IMO.

 

That's setting the bar incredibly high for a young batter.

[ILuvDaBush]

Isn't the OBP a bit high? My expectation in Sep. if he gets the callup would be something around .275/.335/.465...and I have pretty high expectations. Moreover, I would take Sean Burroughs production as a Sep. callup if his defense truly panned out. If he figures it out defensively, he has the ability to be Wright-ian...which isn't as high of praise as it sounds like, Gold Glove Award not withstanding.

[danzig6767]

I understand completely why the Brewers would want Gamel to stay in the minors one more season to try and improve on all of his skills. For selfish reasons of next year though, it should would be nice to possibly have a good left handed stick in the lineup added to Prince.

 

One reason for offense struggles this year sure seems to be the right handed dominant lineup. Except for when Branyan was playing a lot and producing, Prince was the only consistently productive left handed batter in the lineup in most games. Then we get in games with a righty pitcher throwing well, it's tough with only Prince around on the left side.

[kramnoj]

The pitching situation should not be solved by trading Fielder

 

It'd be hard to see him go, that's for sure. I think he's our best & most talented hitter by a relatively wide gulf.

 

Did you mean specifically at 1B, or in general? If the former, sure. If the latter, I just don't think that's true. If you look at 2007 and 2008 their OPS+ is really close. Fielder has a better walk rate, but Braun has more power and a better batting average.

 

If the plan is to throw money at Derek Lowe or Ryan Dempster, I'd rather the Brewers just re-sign Sheets.

 

That's a sensible thought, but I don't think the FO is thinking this way. They seem to have resigned themselves that Sheets is going to walk and that no offer the team can make will matter, because some other team will be more desparate than the Brewers when pursuing Sheets. I think we can pretty much assume that Sheets is gone, and if we work with that assumption, the team needs to field a field a rotation in 2009.

 

Gallardo and Parry will presumably be 1 and 2 and you can slot Suppan in there as well. I don't know that a lot of people have confidence in the other two slots being filled with some combination of Bush, McClung and Villenueva. It would make sense that the team sign a FA pitcher if they can find what they consider a reasonable deal and then we have decent backup options in our bullpen in case of injuries.

 

Back to the original topic: I can't speak with any informed opinion on Gamel at 3B. This offseason is going to be fascinating to follow, and I think that's one of the reasons that we find ourselves talking about it so much even as the team is doing well this year. Escobar and Gamel could probably be starters in 2009 on quite a few teams next year, but the Brewers may decide to let them season some more. Or the team could try to spend money and assets to acquire a frontline pitcher and will need to bring up either of those players to keep the team on budget.