Braun's 3B Defense vs. Gamel's 3B Defense

[JJHardy7]

As many know, I wasn't a fan of moving Braun off the hot corner and believe over time he would've been at least an average 3B. This was confirmed by those in the Brewers organization in the discussions I had with them. The Brewers are in a win now mode and moved him off 3B for the good of team. I do not have a problem with this, but I think a very important decision the Brewers must make sooner rather than later is what to do with Mat Gamel.

 

I've seen Gamel a few times and again I do think he can handle the hot corner, but if rushed up to the majors the results won't be pretty. I thought I'd throw the idea of who is better at 3B -- 2007 Braun or Gamel in 2009? I've only seen Mat a few times so I'm sure there are others here who have a better idea of where he'll fit in the future. Can the Brewers wait on him until 2010 to be in the big leagues? If they can, I think he'll be MLB average and his defense has improved over the past few weeks. FWIW, Mat is very, very dedicated to proving the doubters wrong in terms of being able to handle 3B. He has a great work ethic, but will it be enough to keep at the hot corner? Is he better or worse than Braun?

[endaround]

Braun is the worst major league 3B anyone alive has ever seen

[PrimeTime955]

Braun is the worst major league 3B anyone alive has ever seen

And Gamel is worse, so I think we have our answer on if Gamel will be our third baseman.

 

[homer]

How do we know Gamel is worse?

[razzzorsharp]

So is Gamel a September callup who may actually start?

[JJHardy7]

Braun is the worst major league 3B anyone alive has ever seen

 

I would rather have a productive discussion than simply throw out ideas like this. When you look at the entire picture Braun had limited experience playing 3B and was rushed up. This rarely gets mentioned, but I think it's critical to the discussion since Gamel may be put in a similar position. This is the entire point of the thread and I'd rather not turn it into a Braun bashing session without looking at the entire picture.

[And That]

And Gamel is worse

How so?

 

[PrimeTime955]

Braun is the worst major league 3B anyone alive has ever seen

 

I would rather have a productive discussion than simply throw out ideas like this. When you look at the entire picture Braun had limited experience playing 3B and was rushed up. This rarely gets mentioned, but I think it's critical to the discussion since Gamel may be put in a similar position. This is the entire point of the thread and I'd rather not turn it into a Braun bashing session without looking at the entire picture.

Yes but he was a short stop his entire life. I understand its a transition, but it's not that huge of a transition. Bill Hall never handled it, Alex Rodriguez handled it.

 

[Mr QL]

I think Braun would of stuck at 3B longer if we didn't have a short obese DH masquerading as a 1st baseman.

[PrimeTime955]

And Gamel is worse

How so?

 

I don't have the numbers right in front of me right now but from what I remember, and it's pretty subjective, Gamels error totals have been significantly worse than Brauns were in the minors.

 

[JJHardy7]

I don't have the numbers right in front of me right now but from what I remember, and it's pretty subjective, Gamels error totals have been significantly worse than Brauns were in the minors.

 

Errors aren't a way to judge a players future potential. This is why I've raised the question instead of looking at subjective numbers. If you've been to some minor league games, the scoring is very subjective like you mention. Gamel by no means is a great defender, but if we want to break it down to the error stat Game has gone about 15 games without an error.

 

I understand the transition isn't huge (SS to 3B), but it is huge when you're not only changing positions you're also being rushed up. It's an adjustment at the position AND an adjustment at the talent level.

[GAME05]

it seems like Gamel gets both a fair and unfair comparison to Braun. fair with his defense, but it seems like parts of all of us think that he's going to be able to come up here and start off gangbusters offensively like Braun did, which is totally unrealistic. we're in a situation with Hall at 3rd (like him or not) and owning Fielder for a few more years, that we can sit on Gamel in AAA maybe even through 2009 and wait for his defense to catch up.

 

are the Brewers really in that much of a win-now mode that we'd sacrifice a good player at such a valuable position as 3b and shift him over to 1st or OF? shift him over to one of those positions and if he has a strong start, his offense would suddenly be league average.

 

and it seems even more important if we're going to go with a young starting rotation not to throw Gamel in there with the wolves and accept subpar defense at that position. heck, even if you don't like Hall there, we have the possibility of Hardy shifting over there for Escobar to come up--then Gamel has a chance to grow while he waits out Hardy's last arbitration year, and our left-side defense would be incredible.

[mkm13]

I don't have the numbers right in front of me right now but from what I remember, and it's pretty subjective, Gamels error totals have been significantly worse than Brauns were in the minors.

 

 

In AA, Braun had 19 Errors in 59 games. This year Gamel has 25 errors in 109 games. Per game Gamel has had much fewer errors compared to Braun in AA. Gamel is still not very good, but I think to a certain extent he is still living off his reputation from last year, when he was horrible. He has improved a quite a bit since then.

[uwisfan]

Braun didnt really have less errors, and he also (apparently) had less range.

 

In his last full year of the minors, Braun had an .890 FP%, compared to Gamel at the same age this year, who currently sports a .919 FP% at the same age and level.

 

Gamel has 25 errors in 108 games compared to 31 in 115 for Braun, and Gamel's attempts are significantly higher.

 

Another interesting thing is that Gamel gets all of his error in small stretches, indicating that it is mainly a mental aspect of his game that he sometimes loses.

 

I think he sticks at third. It's where the organization needs him. I'm more concerned with his batting average "falling of a cliff" since Laporta has been gone. He went from a mid-380s to mid-340s overnight it seems.

[Invader3K]

I really do not want to see Braun moved again. I feel he has turned out to be a better than expected LF so far this season. He also said after the position change that he did not really like playing third base anyway. The Brewers don't need to ask one of their young players (one who is a cornerstone of the franchise) to change positions yet again. Perhaps the answer will be to look at Gamel as a 1B or corner outfielder, and sign a free agent 3B.

[Brily0204]

Josh Kalk at Hardball Times had this to say about Gamel's defense:

 

"Despite cutting his error rate dramatically this year, Gamel still has a ways to go. When Ryan Braun was in Double-A at third, most of his errors came on throws, giving hope that if he could fix that he could stick at third. Gamel has made a rather even amount of fielding and throwing errors, but Money said that footwork was to blame for most of his problems.

 

From what I saw, he let the ball play him several times, making a fielding error and a bobble that would have been another error if his strong arm hadn't saved him. He did make several nice plays, including a backhand stop on a ball down the line with runners on first and second. He got up, stepped on the base, and threw to first in one motion for a double play. He seemed more comfortable going to his backhand than going to his left, which might not be too big an issue if Escobar continues to play to his left.

 

It seems the tools are there for Gamel to stick at third..."

 

Source: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/seeing-stars

[And That]

I don't have the numbers right in front of me right now but from what I remember, and it's pretty subjective, Gamels error totals have been significantly worse than Brauns were in the minors.

1) Error totals in the minor leagues aren't meaningless, but they aren't exactly chock full of meaning either. For instance, Alcides Escobar is considered to be one of the very best defensive shortstop prospects in baseball, and he'll finish the season with 20+ errors. Saying Gamel "is even worse" than Braun based on minor league error totals is not a substantive argument.

2) I've seen many people erroneously correlate Braun's error totals in Milwaukee last year with his suckitude on defense. Braun's biggest problem, by far and away, was his range at third base, not his throwing arm. Braun has a good arm and I too think that over time he would have started to make good throws. However, his range was so bad that I doubt he ever would have been able to get to enough balls to make him adequate at third base. Herein lies the difference between Braun and Gamel IMO. From what I've seen and read, Gamel's problem is not range so much as correctly gloving, transferring and throwing the balls he gets to. He does well with this occasionally, and at other times the yips get into his head. If Gamel can get his footwork down and his confidence up, he has the range and arm to play third base in the major leagues. Braun had the arm, but he had terrible range.

And before someone brings it up, this is not a question re: athleticism between Gamel and Braun - they're both athletic freaks. It's just for whatever reason, Braun didn't react quickly enough to balls at third base (he's said it was a comfort issue). For Gamel, it's not reaction so much as what he does after he reacts. To that end, I think Gamel is more "fixable" than Braun ever was and given enough time in the minor leagues, Gamel will be a decent, albeit likely not stellar, defensive third baseman.

I also agree that the Brewers will keep him in the minors to work on defense for as long as they can hold back his bat. This could be through 2009, or even longer.

 

[endaround]

Braun is the worst major league 3B anyone alive has ever seen

 

I would rather have a productive discussion than simply throw out ideas like this. When you look at the entire picture Braun had limited experience playing 3B and was rushed up. This rarely gets mentioned, but I think it's critical to the discussion since Gamel may be put in a similar position. This is the entire point of the thread and I'd rather not turn it into a Braun bashing session without looking at the entire picture.

Its not an idea, its a fact. Braun was historically terrible. To pretend that somehow that he through hard work was gong to become decent is just fanciful thinking. He didn't have the skills and no amount of work was going to improve his terrible range. So yes Gamel is better bet to be a major league 3B. Will he definately stick? I don't know but that isn't a decision that they have to make a real call on for another year.

 

[JJHardy7]

Its not an idea, its a fact. Braun was historically terrible. To pretend that somehow that he through hard work was gong to become decent is just fanciful thinking. He didn't have the skills and no amount of work was going to improve his terrible range. So yes Gamel is better bet to be a major league 3B. Will he definately stick? I don't know but that isn't a decision that they have to make a real call on for another year.

 

I completely disagree with your logic in this situation. Players can improve, but back to the thread. I'm not saying that Braun should be moved back to 3B. I'm just comparing where they were/at and what the Brewers should do.

[sbrylski]

I think he sticks at third. It's where the organization needs him. I'm more concerned with his batting average "falling of a cliff" since Laporta has been gone. He went from a mid-380s to mid-340s overnight it seems.

 

I think that has less to do with lineup protection than his ~.400 BABIP (IIRC) he was sporting through the first half. (Though BABIP's are higher in the minors, his was still very high.)

[dadofandrew]

Hitting numbers tend to fall off a bit, guys get tired and the weather gets hot, minor injuries keep them from being effective, and so on.

[GAME05]

plus aren't there statistics that show that protection in a lineup isn't as big a difference maker that a lot of people think? i'm not going to downplay Gamel's ability by saying that it was in big part because LaPorta was in the lineup.

[DHonks]

I thought Braun had some absolutely amazing range at 3b. He got to balls that I've only seen Rolen get to. Unfortunately usually after getting to a ball that nearly every other 3b would fail to grab, he usually made a throwing error. I thought it could have worked with Braun at 3b, but I'm happy with him in left because it means Jenkins' abysmal range isn't out there

[Buckhunts]

Long time reader. First time poster. I have seen Mat Gamel play third base for an entire season and I had the pleasure of watching him in BP and in 4 games this year. I can say that I believe 80% of his errors are mental errors. The other 20% seem to be throwing errors or letting the ball play him. He struggles with the simple plays when he has time to think about the throw. I have nothing but confidence in his abilities and work ethic to become at least an average 3rd baseman, defensively speaking. Now in regards to his batting average dropping, did anyone really expect him to hit .380 for the season?

[uwisfan]

no, i didnt expect him to stay at 385 all season. He seemed unstoppable at the plate. However, he was over the halfway point and hitting 385, so I was expecting/hoping for a 360ish finish. He has plummeted back to the pack in a very short span, which was just disappointing to see. This doesnt make him bad, but it scares me in that it might be the first half was flukey. So yes, I'm having to temper my enthusiasm.

 

My point about it being at the time of Laporta's departure is just a time reference point..its recent in other words.