Manny to Dodgers, Bay to Red Sox, 4 players to Pirates

[ELCABALLO45]

Manny is not "over the hill" quite yet.

 

I think the headline in Boston should of said...

 

Team trades Moss to Pittsburgh

[crewcrazy]

As a local partial observer of the Dodgers, this trade epitomizes their franchise.

Just wait until Ned Colletti gives him 4 years, $100 million in the offseason. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

I'm not saying he's done El Caballo, but his best days are behind him...and as crewcrazy points out...that is exactly what they will do. I'm sure Manny will really help that lousy clubhouse too...they should put his locker next to Jeff Kent.

 

Typical Dodgers move. They have not been the same since Fox bought them and traded Mike Piazza. Only their deep pockets keep them mediocre and save them from total oblivion. I hope the next Cubs owner follows the McCourt model.

[twobrewers]

Wow, I definately think that Boston is the loser in this trade. Just look at it.

 

A few years back Boston put Manny on waivers. (A few times) Anyone could have had him for free at that time. No one took him because Manny was a little too crazy.

 

Since that time Manny has gotten more crazy. And Boston - who couldn't give him away a few years back - turned him into Jason Bay!

 

Boston did very well.

[Shawnwi76]

But this wasnt a Bay for Manny trade. I think Boston gave up way too much for Bay and then have to eat Manny's salary for the rest of the year besides.

[TooLiveBrew]

I suppose this trade could really help the Dodgers, but it seems equally likely that Kemp or Ethier will be sitting on any given day as Jones or Pierre. In fact, I really can't see BOTH Jones and Pierre riding the bench very often at all.

 

Yes, and they have the ultimate, 'Young guys haven't proven anything yet. Give me vets -- they've been through the fires' manager in Joe Torre.

 

 

As a local partial observer of the Dodgers, this trade epitomizes their franchise. Instead of focusing on the building blocks of their decent minor league system like the Red Sox have done and then add the big salaries on top of it...they go out and get these over the hill guys and pay too much.

 

Absolutely. It's easy to tell you've followed the Dodgers in recent seasons. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

 

A few years back Boston put Manny on waivers. (A few times) Anyone could have had him for free at that time. No one took him because Manny was a little too crazy.

 

No one took him because the Sox would have just pulled him back, or they were hoping he'd clear so they could trade for him.

[twobrewers]

No one took him because the Sox would have just pulled him back, or they were hoping he'd clear so they could trade for him.

Do you have any articles or links to back that up?

 

I am about 90% sure they were just trying to get out of his contract.

 

Today, $20 million a year for a player of Manny's ability seems reasonable. But it was more than he was worth a few years back.

[2008 world champs]

I know this is slightly off topic but i just had to comment. I was watching Manny's press conference on ESPNNEWS (no I haven't learned from my rant a few nights ago) Anyway, I was impressed at how bilingual Manny is. He could answer one question in Spanish and then turn to English on the fly without hesitation. I know he was brought up in Hispanic community but it still really impressed me. I sat and watched that and my brother was like "what are you doing doesn't that bother you" Usually it does because I can't understand it and the translator talking over people is annoying. With that said heres to a 0-20 against milwaukee in a few series.

[crewcrazy]

He's been living in the U.S. since he was a teenager, if I remember correctly (he went to high school in New York City), so he's definitely comfortable speaking English (unlike someone like Vlad Guerrero, who's still not comfortable speaking publicly in English because he's only really in the U.S. during the season). I saw that press conference, too, and thought he was hilarious, talking about selling the rights to his "soap opera" the past couple years to the local Univision station in LA, and presenting it with no commercials so people could really concentrate on watching it.

[TooLiveBrew]

Do you have any articles or links to back that up?

 

Do you have the articles that no team claimed him due to anything aside from hoping they could trade for him or knowing the Sox would just pull him back? I'm not out with ill will here. Just going on market size, there's a decent list of teams that would have happily taken on his salary if all they had to do was claim him.

 

If any team claimed Manny, the Sox would have pulled him back. You don't give a player like that away -- it's just not the way baseball tends to work. You keep the elite player & in this case, watch him lead your team to a couple WS titles. That is, until he's openly dogging it & basically doing everything in his power to force your hand to trade him** (see below). Then, you let him go, essentially along with two prospects, for Jason Bay. That's the best the Sox could do, and more power to them in that sense. The guy comes across as a nutjob, and if he was going to continue openly tanking, they'd have been in trouble. Manny hates the management/ownership in Boston, and did everything he could to get out this time.**

 

 

I am about 90% sure they were just trying to get out of his contract.

 

I agree -- trouble is, no deals were finalized. As you said, $20M is a chunk. However, I don't agree that Boston was hoping to just give him away for free. The Sox were shopping him for basically the last 3 or 4 seasons & offseasons, but no one wanted to pay the price (prospects) they were asking... at least, that's my recollection of every trade story on Manny. Theo was asking the moon, and rightly so, but no one wanted in until the price came down. This season, that finally happened.

 

 

But it was more than he was worth a few years back.

 

Just my opinion, but I can't think of many other players worth as much as Manny's premium offensive production year after year.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

** Here's the guts/some excerpts of what Manny had to say (linked from a newsday.com article)

 

"Ramirez told ESPN Deportes Sunday that he wants to be traded and doesn't care to which team.

'I can even play in Iraq if need be,' he said.
...
'Enough is enough,' he said. 'I'm tired of them. They're tired of me.'
...
'I don't want to talk to them about contracts right now,' he said. 'So what? I know they've got me. But, hey, enough is enough.' "

 

 

 

Here's more, from the Boston Herald's Tony Massarotti:

" 'The Red Sox don't deserve a player like me,' Ramirez said. 'During my years here I've seen how they have mistreated other great players when they didn't want them to try to turn the fans against them. The Red Sox did the same with guys like Nomar Garciaparra and Pedro Martinez, and now they do the same with me.

'Their goal is to paint me as the bad guy,' Ramirez added. 'I love Boston fans, but the Red Sox don't deserve me. I'm not talking about money. Mental peace has no price and I don't have peace here.' "

[TooLiveBrew]

Found some more info on Manny's antics from Dan Shaughnessy's Boston Globe article:

 

"[in early July], manager Terry Francona sent Manny up to pinch hit against Yankees ace Mariano Rivera. It was Manny's day off, and the slugger appeared totally uninterested, looking at three strikes without removing the bat from his shoulder.

During the All-Star break, Manny made remarks critical of Sox ownership regarding his past contract negotiations. Owner John W. Henry responded with an e-mail in which he said he was "personally offended."

Nine days ago, prior to the final game of a West Coast trip, Manny told Francona he was unable to play because of a previously unreported knee injury. The tipping point came one week ago tonight when Manny pulled the same stunt before the first game of a three-game set with the Yankees.

That was it. The Sox decided they were done with him. They'd been Manny's prisoner too long. It was unanimous upstairs. Henry, Tom Werner, Larry Lucchino, Theo Epstein, and Francona were all steamed. One teammate called Manny's bailout "a disgrace." The Sox sent him out for an MRI on both knees, then made sure the media knew he was not injured. They threatened to suspend Manny if he didn't play the next day. Manny played.

Then he started yapping. He said he was done with them. He said they didn't deserve him.

Theo and the minions went to work. Manny had stripped the Sox of most of their leverage, but they were intent on dealing him anyway. The Sox gave up a ton in this deal. They parted with their cleanup hitter. They gave up two prospects. They're paying Manny's salary. And they forfeited the two high draft picks they'd have gotten if they lost him to free agency. Bay is good, but he's not that good.

At the end, Manny didn't care about winning. He didn't care about anything except Manny and the ego-driven wallet measuring that motivates so many of today's superstars. He did the Sox no favors, shooting his way out of town, but he got what he wanted. He gets to play in Los Angeles for Joe Torre. He gets to work toward his next contract - money he'll never possibly have time to spend.

Ultimately, this trade is a demonstration of how badly Boston wanted to get rid of Manny. It wasn't about home runs or on-base percentage. But it had to be done out of fairness to the manager and the other 24 Red Sox players who are here to win."

[crewcrazy]

Apparently, it wasn't just a decision by Theo Epstein to trade Manny -- Epstein talked to a number of the team's vets and they all voted that Manny had to go:

 

General manager Theo Epstein was working with a mandate from within his own clubhouse. After his team's dispiriting loss to the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim on Wednesday night, Epstein met with a handful of Red Sox veterans, all of whom delivered the same message: Manny had to go.

 

If his antics weren't directly responsible for the team's slide - the Sox have lost five of six on the current homestand, their worst stretch of play at Fenway all season - they were certainly serving as a distraction.

 

Worse, the players feared that if Ramirez remained with the Sox for the rest of the season, he couldn't be counted upon in the middle of a pennant race. In their minds, there were no guarantees that Ramirez wouldn't engage in further petulant displays that could sidetrack the team's playoff push.

 

...

 

Teammates were tired of answering questions about him, tired of rationalizing his selfish behavior, and frankly, tired of him.

 

Link: http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/sp_bb_red_sox_trade01_08-01-08_O7B2I4V_v19.40422d2.html

[danzig6767]

As a local partial observer of the Dodgers, this trade epitomizes their franchise. Instead of focusing on the building blocks of their decent minor league system like the Red Sox have done and then add the big salaries on top of it...they go out and get these over the hill guys and pay too much. Jones, Kent, Garciaparra...and now Ramirez. Congrats Dodgers...you are now slightly above average and gave up more of your future to do so. McCourt reminds me of Peter Angelos when he first bought the O's...he had no idea what he was doing and had no patience. The Dodgers may win this pathetic division...but they will be swept in 3 by whoever they play..and no one in LA will care.

I don't see your issue with the trade

Jones was a terrible signing, but even with Manny not being as good as in his prime Manny, he's quite a bit better right now than Either and light years better than Pierre. In this trade, the Dodgers didn't give up much and didn't take on a big long term deal, i believe the last two years on the deal involve team options.

The NL West is a terrible division and the Dodgers easily could end up now winning it. True they'd have to buck the odds to advance far in the playoffs, but we've seen quite a few instances since the Wild Card was brought in where lesser record teams ended up not only in the World Series, but winning it. As recently as 2006, a very mediocre Cardinals team that won only 83 regular season games ended up winning it all.

 

The first round of the playoffs is only a 5 game series, it's very easy for a better team to lose to a lesser one in such a short series. Then you're one 7 game series from the World Series. In baseball unlike the NBA, it's easier and much more common to see upsets given the nature of the game, just getting in is the biggest key.

 

[Trombone482]

Manny played today wearing 99? I don't follow the history of Dodger baseball, is 24 retired? Any reason that we know that he is wearing 99? Don't just say Manny being Manny.

[Trombone482]

http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080731&content_id=3231329&vkey=news_la&fext=.jsp&c_id=la Story from Dodgers.com Front office moving a little fast cranking out the jersey shirts

[crewcrazy]

24 is retired by the Dodgers (former manager Walter Alston). Yesterday it was being reported that he'd wear #28, but he showed up for the press conference today in a #99 Dodgers BP jersey. Maybe that's how many millions he intends to get this offseason.

[endaround]

I don't see your issue with the trade

Jones was a terrible signing, but even with Manny not being as good as in his prime Manny, he's quite a bit better right now than Either and light years better than Pierre. In this trade, the Dodgers didn't give up much and didn't take on a big long term deal, i believe the last two years on the deal involve team options.

The NL West is a terrible division and the Dodgers easily could end up now winning it. True they'd have to buck the odds to advance far in the playoffs, but we've seen quite a few instances since the Wild Card was brought in where lesser record teams ended up not only in the World Series, but winning it. As recently as 2006, a very mediocre Cardinals team that won only 83 regular season games ended up winning it all.

 

The first round of the playoffs is only a 5 game series, it's very easy for a better team to lose to a lesser one in such a short series. Then you're one 7 game series from the World Series. In baseball unlike the NBA, it's easier and much more common to see upsets given the nature of the game, just getting in is the biggest key.

 

The problem with the trade was is that instead of Manny they could have gotten Bay (obviously) and they went with the guy who can't play defense and is only around for 2 months.

 

[twobrewers]

If any team claimed Manny, the Sox would have pulled him back. You don't give a player like that away -- it's just not the way baseball tends to work.

Nope. You are apparently wrong.

 

In a surprising move, the Red Sox put Manny Ramirez up for grabs, placing the All-Star outfielder on irrevocable waivers last night, according to the websites of The New York Times and the Boston Herald.

 

Unlike regular waivers, the Red Sox cannot pull Ramirez back if he is claimed. If he is not claimed, Boston will keep him, but can try to trade him.

Boston.com

 

ESPN.com Article

 

NY Times

 

So Manny got more crazy. With less money owed to him. And now they were able to get Jason Bay for him.

[sgtcluels]

Bay had a great first night for the BoSox. I'm sure he's not used to being on a winning team.

[TooLiveBrew]

Nope. You are apparently wrong.

 

In a surprising move, the Red Sox put Manny Ramirez up for grabs, placing the All-Star outfielder on irrevocable waivers last night, according to the websites of The New York Times and the Boston Herald

 

Thanks for finding that twobrewers. I certainly didn't.

 

 

So Manny got more crazy. With less money owed to him. And now they were able to get Jason Bay for him.

 

Welcome to Ned Colletti's universe. Though the two compensation picks are apparently more important than getting Bay for the Dodgers.

[danzig6767]

I don't see your issue with the trade

Jones was a terrible signing, but even with Manny not being as good as in his prime Manny, he's quite a bit better right now than Either and light years better than Pierre. In this trade, the Dodgers didn't give up much and didn't take on a big long term deal, i believe the last two years on the deal involve team options.

The NL West is a terrible division and the Dodgers easily could end up now winning it. True they'd have to buck the odds to advance far in the playoffs, but we've seen quite a few instances since the Wild Card was brought in where lesser record teams ended up not only in the World Series, but winning it. As recently as 2006, a very mediocre Cardinals team that won only 83 regular season games ended up winning it all.

 

The first round of the playoffs is only a 5 game series, it's very easy for a better team to lose to a lesser one in such a short series. Then you're one 7 game series from the World Series. In baseball unlike the NBA, it's easier and much more common to see upsets given the nature of the game, just getting in is the biggest key.

 

The problem with the trade was is that instead of Manny they could have gotten Bay (obviously) and they went with the guy who can't play defense and is only around for 2 months.

 

 

Maybe they didn't want to give up all the prospects the Pirates were demanding for Bay, Moss and Hansen came from the Red Sox.