Brewers' HR's and HR Etiquette: Is the Crew getting too cocky?

[Patrick425]

I wasn't trying to be condescending to Pat or anyone else with my post

I didn't sense anything condescending. Not to go too off topic, but how does elias, or whoever, determine distances? It's not like there is a micro-chip in the ball or something. How do they gauge speed, trajectory or even the exact point where the ball lands? I'm assuming they would take speed and angle into account, two balls hitting the bleachers at the same spot could measure differently. I'm also assuming the distances are based on where the ball would land if it landed unimpeded by bleachers, stands, or anything else.

[lcbj68c]

By Sam Walker, The Wall Street Journal

Baseball's missing statistic: Home run trajectory

 

Via AP

 

 

 

If there was a poll taken to choose this season's most magnificent home run, there would be three early favorites: the shot Alex Rodriguez hit in August that nearly tagged a trash compactor at Yankee Stadium, Wily Mo Pena's June blast to deep center at Busch Stadium in St. Louis, and the ball Manny Ramirez of the Boston Red Sox knocked clear over a left-field light tower at Fenway Park.

 

These Ruthian clouts, in addition to being among the longest anyone has seen in these stadiums, have something else in common: Nobody knows precisely how far they flew. And if they say they do, they're definitely not scientists.

 

It's one of the great enduring absurdities of baseball: As much as the game is ruled by numbers and endlessly deconstructed by statisticians, most ball clubs don't have any reliable method for determining how far a batted ball has traveled once it leaves the field of play. When they aren't making crude geometric calculations on scratch paper or just purely guessing, team officials rely on survey diagrams that are nearly 20 years old or even send out members of the grounds crew to clamber around the outfield with spools of measuring tape. Accuracy has become such a problem that some teams have stopped trying to estimate distances entirely. "There are so many variables," says Glenn Geffner, a spokesman for the Red Sox, a team that no longer measures home runs. "These numbers mean nothing when they're announced."

 

Of course, tracking homers isn't a simple process, and it usually involves calculating how far a ball would have gone if it had hit flat ground instead of bouncing off a light pole or hitting the picture window of a restaurant in the stadium's upper deck. And the numbers aren't the least bit relevant to the outcome of a game. Still, the true distance of an epic homer is precisely the sort of barstool topic that fans are intensely curious about.

 

But at a time when sports such as tennis and golf are using lasers, microchips and computer models to determine the trajectories of shots, baseball is running out of excuses. Not only does the technology exist, but the necessary equipment has already been installed at nearly a dozen ballparks.

 

Ed Plumacher, president of QuesTec, a company that has fitted cameras in 11 major league stadiums to monitor the performance of umpires, says that with an investment of about $15,000 per stadium in new software, this system could measure home-run distances to within one meter. The only trouble, he says: "I haven't found anybody who wants to pay for it."

 

It isn't that baseball hasn't tried. In 1988, the league, in partnership with IBM, launched a program called "Tale of the Tape" where survey crews were sent to map the outfield dimensions of every ballpark and make charts teams could use for reference. Though the system was inexact, it gave measurements a modicum of credibility for about 10 years. But since the program ended, teams have been left to fend for themselves. While some have taken pains to be as accurate as possible -- the Chicago White Sox, for one, enlisted a team of engineering students from the Illinois Institute of Technology to survey their ballpark in 2002 -- most of their improvisations fall short of what could be considered scientifically rigorous.

 

On the rare occasions when the Anaheim Angels decide to announce a measurement, they turn to a survey chart that was prepared before an extensive ballpark renovation. Unlike most teams, the Baltimore Orioles count the distance only to the point where the ball was stopped by some object in the outfield, rather than how far the ball would have flown if it hadn't been impeded. And the Minnesota Twins still use a chart prepared two decades ago by a graduate student from the University of Minnesota math department, even though they've lost the specially designed calculator they were given to factor in the arc of the ball.

 

This June, when Cincinnati's Wily Mo Pena hit a majestic bomb off the centerfield "batter's eye" at Busch Stadium, the St. Louis Cardinals dug out their official yardstick: a photocopy of a photocopy (of a photocopy) of the original IBM survey from 17 years ago.

 

Back then, the farthest distance the surveyors thought to measure was the base of the batter's eye in centerfield, which was 470 feet. So to make the estimate, team officials took that number, added 18 feet to approximate the extra height and four more to account for the distance the ball might have flown if it landed on flat ground. The result? A thoroughly unscientific 492. "We like to joke that it's accurate to plus or minus 20 feet," says a Cardinals spokesman.

 

One problem with the whole enterprise is that when definitive measurements are taken, they're often anticlimactic. The home run that launched the whole concept of the "tape measure" shot was, by most accounts, a 1953 blast by Mickey Mantle on a windy day at Washington's Griffith Stadium. The distance (paced off by a Yankees public-relations man) was reported to be an unfathomable 565 feet, and would go on to become the gold standard by which all other epic home runs were measured.

 

The only problem: It was an exaggeration. According to Yale physics professor Robert K. Adair, the farthest a modern player can expect to hit a regulation baseball thrown by a big-league pitcher under normal conditions (barring, say, a freakish gust of wind) is about 500 feet. After investigating the matter in his seminal 1994 book on baseball physics, he concluded that the actual distance of Mantle's home run was more like 506 feet.

 

Nonetheless, the damage was done. Even today baseball fans often seem disappointed, if not downright skeptical, when the mammoth blast they've just seen is determined to have fallen short of the 500-foot threshold.

 

After Alex Rodriguez hit his towering home run to left field off Texas pitcher Juan Dominguez on Aug. 13, he called it the hardest ball he'd ever hit. Yankees officials, working from past measurements of the ballpark, quickly estimated the ball had landed 485 feet from home plate. But after hearing that number from reporters after the game, team owner George Steinbrenner wasn't buying it. "It must have gone farther than that," he said.

 

The distance of this home run has since become a contentious subject among Yankee fans and has unleashed a comedy of inexactitude. One fan arrived at a distance of 502 feet by examining satellite maps on Google Earth. Yankees TV broadcaster Jim Kaat tried to pace off the distance by using his shoes as measuring sticks. His verdict: 520 feet.

 

As the controversy built, Yankees officials decided to settle the issue by trotting out their tool of last resort: The "fishtail" -- a lengthy spool of industrial measuring tape. And since the ball landed on flat ground, they were able to make an unusually precise reading. That method put the distance at 487 feet, which the team adopted as the final word.

 

If Major League Baseball or any of its teams was determined to tackle this problem for good, there's no question it could be done. When the White Sox began looking at measurement options, they were presented with a $300,000 radar system used to track missiles. For considerably less money ($2,795, to be exact) any team could buy a hand-held Impulse Laser rangefinder from Laser Technology Inc. in Centennial, Colo., that weighs less than 3 pounds, runs on batteries, and is accurate to within 2 inches. By standing on home plate after the game or even between innings, a team official could measure the distance of almost any home run with the push of a button.

 

In 2000, a company called SportVision installed a system at the All-Star Game in Atlanta for ESPN that converted the field into a digital grid and instantly plotted the speed and trajectory of home runs. The company says the distances it calculated were accurate to within 2 feet.

 

During this year's postseason, baseball's Advanced Media division is hoping to demonstrate a refined version of this system that could someday be installed in every MLB ballpark.

 

Not everyone in baseball is enamored of the idea of calibrating every longball. Larry Babcock, the baseball-information manager for the Angels, says the team stopped measuring routine homers a few years ago, in part because so many were being hit that it was getting sort of tedious. And for the most part, the distances weren't very interesting. "If the wall says 330 feet and you see it land just above that, I don't see why you need to announce 332."

 

Rich Levin, a spokesman for Major League Baseball, says measuring every home run decisively might take something away from the game. There's a lot of romance surrounding the distances of famous home-run balls, he says, "and I think the lack of precise measurement adds to that."

 

Nevertheless, when Manny Ramirez launched that asteroid over the light tower at Fenway on April 19, the Red Sox, true to their policy, did not speculate on how far it traveled, even if lots of people would have liked to know. When a reporter asked him to comment on the home run after the game, Boston center fielder Johnny Damon responded with a question of his own.

[lcbj68c]

Please dont strike me for long material, I honestly went through and couldnt find anything to cut that I didnt think wasn't informative.

[MJLiverock]

Celebration comes in many forms and given the many other examples of players today, this was not close to being so negative to the game of baseball. The game of baseball has changed since 1920. Society in general has changed much since 1920. There is very much a "one-up" attitude amongst a lot of people and events. This does nothing to bring down the game of baseball. It wasn't poor sportsmanship. Our children's brains aren't damned forever for watching it.

Couldn't have said it any better. I feel people way over react to anything a hitter does after hitting a bomb and just look for something to be offended about. Braun didn't go over the top he walked in a slowing increasing speed out of the box as he tossed his bat, hardly showing anyone up. Some people will never be satisfied unless a batter hits the ball out acts like he is ashamed he did it and speeds around the bases looking like that fool Eckstein sprinting to first on a walk. If a batter wants to watch a little or break into a slow jog at first I have no problem with it as long as he doesn't make gestures toward the opposing team or fans.

 

Owen I didn'twatch your video of Aaron and such but I assume you didn't post videos of all 755 of Aaron's HRs so not sure what posting a few of them proves other than there are examples of Aaron just sprinting around the bases. I am sure we can all go out and find plenty of examples of Braun puttng his head down and going around the bases as well. I guess I am saying I wouldn't be shocked at seeing that somewhere in the 755 Aaron might not have been ashamed of hitting one out.

 

(pared back long quote --1992)

[MickeyDavis]

Cards fans seem more upset about untucking our uniforms after the win. They seem to think we just started doing it this past series.

[SeriesFinale]

Cards fans seem more upset about untucking our uniforms after the win. They seem to think we just started doing it this past series.

I had a Giants' fan asking me about that this past Sunday in SF, and he seemed kinda chapped about it too (although I'm sure that was more about the fact his team just got worked for the weekend). I didn't realize it was such an odd affront.

[bigredrobbo]

Where's Zapruder when you need him?

 

I love the double standard about this whole debate. A young player doesn't get to preen because he hasn't earned the respect that comes with experience, yet if they have experience we get the whole "act like you've been there before" complaint.

 

Again, slow news day, Yost-wise, so we have 11 pages of physics and ethics discussions about the game we all love (Mr. Braun included!)

[LouisEly]

I'm not a fan of standing and watching, because you never know - a big gust of wind, a bird, a stupid flag pole in the middle of centerfield whose base is 430 feet from home plate...

 

But I am absolutely digging it. This franchise has been down for 26 years. 'Bout time we had some swagger. I think they should show all of those HRs in the intro at Miller Park before they introduce the lineups in a video montage, with POD's "Here comes the BOOM" as the soundtrack.

 

And there's a difference between watching it and mouthing off about it.

 

and the ball Manny Ramirez of the Boston Red Sox knocked clear over a left-field light tower at Fenway Park.

 

Corey Hart did the same thing. And what about Branyan's blast that may have bounced off the concession stand in the Dew Deck?

[Tbadder]

I really don't get the being upset about pulling out the jerseys. It's not directed anywhere. Is it symbolic of something? Hmmmm.

[Patrick425]

Couldn't have said it any better. I feel people way over react to anything a hitter does after hitting a bomb and just look for something to be offended about. Braun didn't go over the top he walked in a slowing increasing speed out of the box as he tossed his bat, hardly showing anyone up. Some people will never be satisfied unless a batter hits the ball out acts like he is ashamed he did it and speeds around the bases looking like that fool Eckstein sprinting to first on a walk. If a batter wants to watch a little or break into a slow jog at first I have no problem with it as long as he doesn't make gestures toward the opposing team or fans.

 

Owen I didn'twatch your video of Aaron and such but I assume you didn't post videos of all 755 of Aaron's HRs so not sure what posting a few of them proves other than there are examples of Aaron just sprinting around the bases. I am sure we can all go out and find plenty of examples of Braun puttng his head down and going around the bases as well. I guess I am saying I wouldn't be shocked at seeing that somewhere in the 755 Aaron might not have been ashamed of hitting one out.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Braun be "ashamed" of his HR and I don't think anyone is saying that he should quietly round the bases and take his seat on the bench and show no emotion. I love emotion, I love fist pumping and hand slapping. If you did not see the game last night and I tried to explain it to you and I said that Braun "showed a lot of emotion after he hit his HR", would you honestly equate that to him posing after the HR? I think most people, upon hearing that description, would think he showed some excitment, fist pumping or something like that. Posing after a HR is something completely different than that.

 

Also, I realize that Eckstein is not a fan favorite on this board (mainly because he does not put up great stats, so that's good enough reason to hate his guts I guess??). However, do you really think hustling to 1st after a walk is foolish? Should I tell my son and the team he plays on to stop doing that because it looks foolish and by all mean we don't want to look foolish? It's very important that try to be cool at all times. If you hit a pop up, you might as well just head back to the dug out and assume it's going to be caught. Don't hustle because everyone will laugh at you for how silly you look. You don't want anyone to ever think that you are giving it everything you got. This is the attitude of many students in MPS. If you show any signs of caring about your school work or your future or if you make any effort at all, you must not be one of us and therefor your a fool. Yes, there should be a lot of blue in this paragraph, but hopefully everyone gets the sarcasm.

 

I know someone is bound to say I'm taking the analogy way too far, but if people really think someone is "foolish" for hustling, then I don't think the analogy is out of wack at all.

[MJLiverock]

I wouldn't even go so far as to say that Braun posed last night. He just didn't run fast enough right away in the opinion of some.

 

The Eckstien sprint to first on a walk could be construed the same way. He isn't showing some special hustle by sprinting, he doesn't get an extra base, he is just showboating and trying to show up the pitcher for walking him. It is like his own personal slow motion HR trot.

 

Nowhere did I say a player shouldn't run out a pop up so I am not sure where you are going with that one.

 

If a little leaguer wants to run to first on a walk, no problem. It is hard to tell a sprint form a jog anyway and it is Little League, kids are excited.

 

Eckstein's sprint to first is just as bush league if not moreso than standing in the box and admiring a HR especially a GW HR.

 

I still don't think Braun posed last night. He didn't even stay in the box that long, didn't do a twirl, didn't point at the opposing team or fans, didn't say anything to the pitcher or catcher, didn't slow trot around the bases, no cartwheels or jumping jacks, etc.

[JJHardy7]

I really don't get the being upset about pulling out the jerseys. It's not directed anywhere. Is it symbolic of something?

 

I apologize if this is posted somewhere else (I'm sure it has), but this all started with Mike Cameron. I guess he's been doing it for awhile and it's to honor his dad and his brother. His dad would always come home from a long hard day of work and immediately untuck his shirt, relax, and have a cold one. I guess his brother must do the same thing now too. I think this was on one of the games this week reported by Brian Anderson. It's more or less a way to honor his family for the hard work they have to do while he gets paid well to play a game. The rest of the team just started picking up on it and liked the idea.

[MadisonBrewerBlue]

i have been following the brewers since 1970. if a brewer player wants to watch his home run in a season where we make the playoffs...fine by me...i like the brewers with a swag

[Patrick425]

Eckstein's sprint to first is just as bush league

Are you serious? Wow, I just come from a completely different school of thought. I guess Pete Rose was bush league then too. I have never, ever heard anyone who criticizes an athelete for hustling. I don't get it.

[lcbj68c]

Given the amount of dollars invested in these players, why risk an injury sprinting down to first base on a BB as if you were trying to beat out a double play in the 9th inning? You may need that hustle later in the inning, why waste energy/calories/whatever by sprinting to 1st base? I realize it's a cute idea, like Sosa sprinting to his outfield position, but it's exactly that, cute. It's a novelty idea, designed in my opinion to say, look at me! "I'm different, I'm sprinting. I may pull a hammy or be slightly slower trying to score from 2nd on a basehit, but damn, I sure hustled to first on that walk!" I don't get that.

[homer]

OK, sprinting to first on a walk I can understand. But sprinting on a ground ball or something should be the norm - except for maybe a pitcher making the third out.

[Brew Guzzler]

Ryan Braun celebrated this homer with a little fist pump tonight that even the celehaters will be okay with. Also it was a freaking awesome home run.

[jhart05]

As long as Braun keeps hitting these key home runs, I don't care if he wants to moon-walk around the bases.

[brewerguy71]

Ryan Braun is fast becoming the leading jag in baseball. He's never hit a HR he didnt like watching leave the park. And then that self imposed curtain call. He's acting like an amateur.

 

The really sad thing is that if Brewer fans think he is arrogant now, just think of how "helpful" he will be in the clubhouse 2 years from now when he realizes he got jobbed in the contract he signed.

 

I see another Gary Sheffield coming....

[Invader3K]

Ryan Braun is fast becoming the leading jag in baseball. He's never hit a HR he didnt like watching leave the park. And then that self imposed curtain call. He's acting like an amateur.

 

The really sad thing is that if Brewer fans think he is arrogant now, just think of how "helpful" he will be in the clubhouse 2 years from now when he realizes he got jobbed in the contract he signed.

 

I see another Gary Sheffield coming....

I completely disagree with everything you just posted.

Braun is a little bit cocky...I get the feeling that if he played for the Yankees or Red Sox, no one would care. He plays for the lowly Brewers though, so we're just supposed to be surprised and happy when our guys do well, I guess.

 

[mark brouhard is number on]

Ryan Braun is fast becoming the leading jag in baseball. He's never hit a HR he didnt like watching leave the park. And then that self imposed curtain call. He's acting like an amateur.

 

The really sad thing is that if Brewer fans think he is arrogant now, just think of how "helpful" he will be in the clubhouse 2 years from now when he realizes he got jobbed in the contract he signed.

 

I see another Gary Sheffield coming....

 

you're 100% wrong in everything you just said. he is no where near any comment you just made. i smell a cubs fan

[pretendastronaut]

Ryan Braun is fast becoming the leading jag in baseball. He's never hit a HR he didnt like watching leave the park. And then that self imposed curtain call. He's acting like an amateur.

 

The really sad thing is that if Brewer fans think he is arrogant now, just think of how "helpful" he will be in the clubhouse 2 years from now when he realizes he got jobbed in the contract he signed.

 

I see another Gary Sheffield coming....

 

Is this post supposed to be troll colored?

[Brew Guzzler]

Ryan Braun is fast becoming the leading jag in baseball. He's never hit a HR he didnt like watching leave the park. And then that self imposed curtain call. He's acting like an amateur.

 

The really sad thing is that if Brewer fans think he is arrogant now, just think of how "helpful" he will be in the clubhouse 2 years from now when he realizes he got jobbed in the contract he signed.

 

I see another Gary Sheffield coming....

No Brewer fan actually says something like this. I hope your drunk or a Schlubs fan

 

[brewerguy71]

No Brewer fan actually says something like this. I hope your drunk or a Schlubs fan

 

I think your intent here is to say "no Bandwagon Brewer fan" actually says something like this.

 

This thread was started by a Brewer fan for the same reasons that I stated above. Robin Yount and Paul Molitor never did that kind of garbage. I dont even recall Geoff Jenkins doing things like this either in his long career with the Brewers. He has had quite a few instances of showboat type of behavior in the last two years. I just think its a little much. I dont see it as swagger at all, I see it as showing up the other guy. Sooner or later, someone is going to take him to task for it.

[PrimeTime955]

No Brewer fan actually says something like this. I hope your drunk or a Schlubs fan

 

I think your intent here is to say "no Bandwagon Brewer fan" actually says something like this.

 

This thread was started by a Brewer fan for the same reasons that I stated above. Robin Yount and Paul Molitor never did that kind of garbage. I dont even recall Geoff Jenkins doing things like this either in his long career with the Brewers. He has had quite a few instances of showboat type of behavior in the last two years. I just think its a little much. I dont see it as swagger at all, I see it as showing up the other guy. Sooner or later, someone is going to take him to task for it.

Good then he will get a free base.

In my opinion this is stupid, Ryan Braun is fine and is killing the ball, as long as he keeps putting them out, he can do whatever he wants. If I have to watch Sorino and Aram and Manny and Pujols and any other superstar in the league watch home runs, I might as well get to watch my guy too.