What to do with J.J. Hardy - he's putting together a great year

[logan82]

Every time there's a thread about Hardy, many people talk about him playing 2B for some reason. I have never understood that. With his cannon and limited range, 3B makes far more sens than 2B if they ever move him.

Just talking about defense I would agree. I think that the big thing people have against moving Hardy to 3B would be that his stats don't translate into what people would typically like to see out of a 3B.

 

 

League average this year

2B .276/.338/.411/.749

SS .267/.322/.385/.706

3B .268/.338/.441/.780

[molitor fan]

Why would Hardy ever agree to go to third base. At SS he is a Top 5-10 offensive player, at 3rd he be lucky to crack the top 20, that would cost him a ton of money IMO. A move to 2nd makes more financial sense for Hardy than a move to 3rd, but he would make the most just staying at SS.

 

While I agree somewhat with the belief that Hardy would not be happy at all with a move from SS, I think Hardy's offensive season continues to be undervalued. His OPS is 2nd overall amongst those that have played SS for more than 135 at bats this year, and is 8th amongst 3B if he were to be slotted as a third sacker. Hardy is still 25 for a few more weeks, so I have to disagree with some of the posters here that seem to think that Hardy's offensive potential has been tapped out, especially when discussing whether his bat will ever play at third..

[Ennder]

Just 2 months ago people were saying Hardy stunk and all season I was the minority when I said he had 20+ HR power and last year wasn't just a fluke and now we want to make him the 3B of the future. Opinions change pretty darn fast around here.

[igor67]

Depending on where Hardy finishes the season offensively I could go for the third base argument provided I was convinced he'd get to well above average over there. For it to be worthwhile he needs to have a bat that will be average or better at the position for some time yet and then he needs to be that plus glove to make him really valuable. Otherwise it is like taking an asset and wasting it. If he finished the year at .360 and .500 for OBP and SLG you probably have to look at it.

[TooLiveBrew]

Just 2 months ago people were saying Hardy stunk and all season I was the minority when I said he had 20+ HR power and last year wasn't just a fluke and now we want to make him the 3B of the future. Opinions change pretty darn fast around here.

 

I was thinking of this, Ennder. It's almost like people base their 'knowledge' on the most recent results. See: Fielder, Prince.

[nate82]

Just 2 months ago people were saying Hardy stunk and all season I was the minority when I said he had 20+ HR power and last year wasn't just a fluke and now we want to make him the 3B of the future. Opinions change pretty darn fast around here.

I still believe Hardy is more valuable to the Brewers in a trade this off season than on the team though since I don't believe Prince will be traded which he should be but that is for another thread and another time. The next best player to land some quality pitching would be Hardy.

 

[TwinsBrewersWorldSeries]

Aside from the financial argument, why aren't we talking about trading Escobar instead?

 

Hardy is a proven All-Star Calibur SS who has carried this team on our best 2 runs in 15 years

Escobar is lighting up AA, but that might not translate into success at the major league level.

 

If Escobar is so valuable to us based on his ability and cheap cost doesn't that make him even more valuable to another team?

 

I realize the danger in trading Escobar is that we might not have an elite SS if Hardy doesn't resign with us, but i would try and sign him to a 4 or 5 year deal in the offseason and if he does i'd try and trade Escobar for an elite player.

 

The gameplan should be to KEEP an elite SS, C, CF, Starting Pitching.... 1B, 2B, LF, and RF (as we've documented) are much more easy to replace.

[zzzmanwitz]

It is mainly a financial argument. Also the fact that Escobar has a great chance to be better defensively than JJ. I know that's hard for some people on this board to believe, but he really is that good with the glove.

[TwinsBrewersWorldSeries]

Well, i'd rather pay Hardy than Fielder. (If for financial reasons), i'd prefer to have Hardy/Gamel than Escobs.ar/Fielder, but by Hardy's FA years Fielder will be gone anyways. If we focus on Hardy, Hart, and Braun as "the core" of the offense and rotate in pre-arby and pre-FA players at the other positions we should have plenty of $$$ for starting pitching and the bullpen

[logan82]

zzzmanwitz wrote:

Also the fact that Escobar has a great chance to be better defensively than JJ. I know that's hard for some people on this board to believe, but he really is that good with the glove.

I don't think to many people would claim that JJ is a better defender than Escobar. The question always seems to be whether Escobar can hit at the MLB level.

[Ennder]

Thought this was an interesting comment on BPro. Should give at least some insight into the value of Hardy.

 

Justin (Milwaukee): Please settle a debate for me. Is JJ Hardy now a top five SS in the major leagues?

 

Christina Kahrl: Sorry, Rammstein's "Te Quiro Puta" just came on, momentary distraction... yes, he is. Between the defense, the up-side, and the present-day performance, he's all that.

 

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/chat/chat.php?chatId=498

[istanbultaye]

Players were timed twice and Hall's best effort was 6.67 seconds, good, but not good enough to win the title of world's fastest Milwaukee Brewer. Outfielder Corey Hart took that honor with a time of 6.59 seconds, just edging infielder Hernan Iribarren's 6.61 second run, outfielder Drew Anderson's 6.69 and surprise contender J.J. Hardy's 6.71. Second baseman Rickie Weeks, one of the pre-race favorites, ran a 6.85, and another pole-sitter, third baseman Ryan Braun, ran a 6.90.

Link - from the article about Bill Hall's track suit on mlb.com

[GB12]

What does Gwynn run?

[istanbultaye]

I'd guess between 6.7 and 6.9 (at least in that 60 yard dash). Thing is, in another running, the times may all change too, as the times are relatively well bunched together, so some would probably go up, and some go down depending on the day, the time, the orbit of Jupiter and whatnot.

[orca1963]

Aside from the financial argument, why aren't we talking about trading Escobar instead?

 

Hardy is a proven All-Star Calibur SS who has carried this team on our best 2 runs in 15 years

Escobar is lighting up AA, but that might not translate into success at the major league level.

 

If Escobar is so valuable to us based on his ability and cheap cost doesn't that make him even more valuable to another team?

 

I realize the danger in trading Escobar is that we might not have an elite SS if Hardy doesn't resign with us, but i would try and sign him to a 4 or 5 year deal in the offseason and if he does i'd try and trade Escobar for an elite player.

 

The gameplan should be to KEEP an elite SS, C, CF, Starting Pitching.... 1B, 2B, LF, and RF (as we've documented) are much more easy to replace.

I couldn't have said it better. JJ=proven, Escobar ???.

 

JJ is also proven to be a great teammate as well. Ultimately I would like to see Escobar in the MLB. Then the problem becomes who plays short and who plays third or second. (I am still a big Weeks fan but let 'em compete). Beyond that the priorities are Hart and Prince in that order. (Pitchers are another matter).

 

 

(zzmanwitz...awesome avitar, I am a Batman geek from way back. RIP Heath.)

 

[paul253]

With the emergence of Alcides Escobar in Huntsville, who is on schedule to be our starting shortstop in 2010, I was wondering what people on here hope happens with JJ Hardy. Personally, I'd love to see him resigned to a long term deal and moved to third base. I think he has the power for it, and would vastly improve the defense, along with Escobar at short. I dont think Gamel should be at third, I think he needs to be moved to first base to replace Fielder. Assuming Green is not selected as the PTBNL by Cleveland, he can be moved to his more natural second base and we can dump Weeks onto a team like KC or Baltimore, who could continue to hope he actually learns to hit. I've really started to like Hardy, and think he and Hart need to be signed long term. The only other option I wouldnt mind seeing is keeping Hardy at short and moving Escobar to second.

[endaround]

Realize that he has been lucky this year and still doesn't have the bat for 3B and trade him.

[giffted1]

If we could get young pitching for him, I'd trade him in a heartbeat. Otherwise, I'd move him to second base. Green is still a few years away and might end up in Cleveland anyway.

[TwinsBrewersWorldSeries]

Escobar could easily end up being a major BUST like Weeks. I'd rather keep the proven Hardy.

[sbrylski]

Escobar could easily end up being a major BUST like Weeks. I'd rather keep the proven Hardy.

Its not Escobar v. Hardy though. It's Hardy v. whatever we get for trading Hardy + Escobar. If we can get Matt Cain for a package centered around Hardy, wouldn't you do that and take your chances on Hardy? Does the difference between Cain and Bush offset the difference between Hardy and Escobar, which is possible there may be little or none?

 

[mothershipconnection]

If we could find someone desperate enough for a SS to give up a quality starter for JJ, I'll gladly take chances with Escobar. Our offense will still be pretty decent with the core we have now, but getting another front of the rotation starter keeps us in better position to make the playoffs, IMO.

[rotoherb]

The SS position has taken a downturn offensively in recent years. Even with Hardy's recent 0-for-19 streak, he still has a higher OPS than any SS in the AL. It's not too crazy to think that some team would overpay for his services if the Brewers shopped him around. A team like the White Sox will have a huge hole at SS this offseason and nothing in the minors. I'm sure Kenny Williams will be shopping all over the place for one, they just may not have much to offer.

[brewerguy71]

I would trade Hardy in a second if Escobar were ready. But that decision is at least 2 years away. And that will be just in time for Hardy's time to enter free agency (one year short) and would be the perfect time to trade him for a prospect or two (if he is still that valuable.

Escobar is a Jose Reyes type of shortstop defensively, a highlight reel play potential every night. And even if he only hits .270 or so with a lower obp, well they can just put him the bottom of the order, and still have a more valuable guy at SS.

Hardy's defensive numbers are a bit misleading. He has the great fielding percentage, but that is because his range is limited. He has a nice OOZ number, but he repeatedly cheats up the middle and gets to balls that are outside of his zone. He does have the nice arm and the nice bat. I dont know if moving him to 2b works very well because he would have limited range there too, and he doesnt have the bat to play 3b. One option would be to make him a RF, but is his arm strong enough for that?

Just like I felt with the preseason and trading Sheets for top quality prospects, so it will be with Hardy when that time comes. I think its always better to load up for the future, and be in a continual rebuilding and improving mode. If the Brewers made good decisions on that front when the time comes, they could land a boatload of premium prospects in trades involving Fielder and Hardy. When that time comes, the Brewer farm system will need a major boost. If they do it right, it could be reminiscient of the days when they had Weeks/Fielder/Braun in the system at the same time.

You definitely move him when the time comes.

[benji]

You would think his bat and ability to turn a double play (unlike what we currently have) would make up for his limited range

[TwinsBrewersWorldSeries]

I disagree on several points-

 

Again, with a premium being placed on stellar "pre-arby" players due to finances, if Escobar is as good as some say he is, we are essentially trading SIX years of Escobar versus TWO years of Hardy. Therefore, i'd argue that Hardy + Players from Escobar Trade > Escobar + Players from Hardy trade. I also disagree with your assessment of Hardy's value to our offense. Both the July surge this year and the 24-10 streak last year both took place EXACTLY when JJ was hot and carrying the team. Braun and Fielder may get us a steady diet of 13-14 wins, but its JJ's offense that makes a GOOD month a GREAT month.

 

We have a good hit, decent field SS, with a terrible hit/terrible field 2B. You suggest that we'll be okay even if Escobar is a no hit, excellent field SS. If thats true, why not bring him up right now to replace Weeks? I also disagree that JJ's bat doesn't play at third. He's outproducing Billy Hall in a BIG WAY and Billy's bat has played third most of the year. JJ might not be an All-Star 3B, but he'd be heads and shoulders the best 3B we have on the current roster.

 

I will agree with anyone that having BOTH JJ and Escobar on the roster at the same time is deal (especially if Escobar's bat will play), but i still have major doubts about Escobar's bat/ He COULD proiect as a solid offensive SS, or he could be another Rickie Weeks. A Rickie Weeks bat with stellar defense would be decent in our lineup, but it would be BELOW what JJ Hardy currently provides.

 

If Hardy will sign with us long term, I vote we either:

1) Replace Rickie Weeks with Escobar

2) Trade Escobar for Starting Pitching