Yost: Rickie's "doing fine," but has "never achieved"

[BraunFan08]

I'm completely done waiting for weeks and his so called potential to arrive. We are in the middle of a pennant chase and we cant afford to give weeks more time. I don't care about hurting feelings. His plate discipline drives me crazy. He strikes out way too much for a guy who doesn't bring consistent power to the plate and his defense is below average. Meanwhile, we have a proven veteran on the bench in Durham who has seen it all and has been a consistent offensive player throughout his career. Am i missing something here? START DURHAM!

[DougJones43]

I really see no point in starting Rickie Weeks over Ray Durham in a playoff race anymore.

I'm sure Ned will point to some asinine stats like 'runs scored' and reduced errors say Weeks has been a great leadoff hitter with fine defense.

 

[Mike Felder]

I feel bad, because from what I see and hear, Rickie's a very nice guy who works hard, cares, and wants to succeed, but eventually enough is enough. He can't keep living on future promise forever. Durham has got to get a shot, pronto.

[Roscoe Chill]

Taking everything in to account, Weeks just isn't good. Young? Yes. Talented? Yes. Has Upside? Yes. Good player right now or since he's been a major leaguer? No, or not often enough. The Brewers management must have some of the same feelings, otherwise they wouldn't have traded for a guy who doesn't play anywhere but 2B.

[rluzinski]

Looking at everything (NOT just this year), Weeks is an certainly an above average offensive 2B. The real question is whether his bad defense makes him even an average 2B overall, at this point in his career. My guess is, probably not. What will he be in 2 years? Hard to say. I would probably take the under, though.

[Roscoe Chill]

Yes, not to be dramatic, but the botched double play tonight was a play that Ray Durham and most 2B would have easily made. Just the last straw for me. And as I said, it's not like the Brewers management doesn't feel similar. Stockpiling bench players that play multiple positions is smart. Getting a guy that plays nothing but 2B? Telling.

[Ennder]

Durham is still behind Weeks defensively so you have to make your arguments on the offensive side to think that Durham should play.

[BraunFan08]

Yes, not to be dramatic, but the botched double play tonight was a play that Ray Durham and most 2B would have easily made. Just the last straw for me. And as I said, it's not like the Brewers management doesn't feel similar. Stockpiling bench players that play multiple positions is smart. Getting a guy that plays nothing but 2B? Telling.

 

Exactly but Yost still has to pull the trigger

[ecjimg]

what I see and hear, Rickie's a very nice guy who works hard

I wish I could find the article, but I do recall reading a quote from some story where Ricky made a comment about his improved defense. He attributed it to going back to what works for him(Im paraphrasing) and not being so "robotic" in his defense. To me that means he's not coachable. That came across as a "forget the fundementals" statement.

[Roscoe Chill]

Durham is still behind Weeks defensively so you have to make your arguments on the offensive side to think that Durham should play.

Tough argument to make as far as I'm concerned. Please don't throw zone ratings or whatever at me. Just rewind the tailor made double play that Weeks screwed up tonight. What stat other than an error shows that? There's no Important Error, and Regular Error stat that is out there.

[logan82]

NDOG44 wrote:

Tough argument to make as far as I'm concerned. Please don't throw zone ratings or whatever at me. Just rewind the tailor made double play that Weeks screwed up tonight.

That arguement doesn't work as we can go back to just this weekend and see Durham's lack of range cost us a hit.

[danzig6767]

Looking at everything (NOT just this year), Weeks is an certainly an above average offensive 2B. The real question is whether his bad defense makes him even an average 2B overall, at this point in his career. My guess is, probably not. What will he be in 2 years? Hard to say. I would probably take the under, though.

Yep

 

If Rickie was the special or fairly special hitter we hoped he'd become, then it would be much easier to live with his defensive problems. I know everyone is focusing on his terrible turn on the DP ball, but his inability to bring in the ball hit by Fukudome was so similar to many plays he hasn't been able to make this year. Plays that were barely just tough enough to not be scored an error, but are plays good defenders make in most cases. I've lost count how many times Weeks has been involved with plays that i'm sure most watching were saying, come on Rickie you gotta make that play, but it was boarderline enough for the official scorer to call it a hit.

 

IMO his error total really understates how often Rickie manages to bungle plays that should have resulted in an out, but either via the ball bounces off his glove, goes under it, or his throw is off target. Yea he is better than he was in the field as a rookie, but that's only going from a miserable defensive player to a below average one.

[Bucky Rules]

Rickie has been much better at the plate for over three weeks now (.391 OBP since 7/6). His last two seasons were pretty good offensively. And I think he's got a chance to make a good season out of this year, too. Obviously tonight was not one of his better nights. But, I'm sticking with him.

[rluzinski]

"Tough argument to make as far as I'm concerned. Please don't throw zone ratings or whatever at me."

 

The subjective fans think Durham is slightly worse as well:

 

http://www.tangotiger.net/scouting/pos2007_2B.html

 

Just rewind the tailor made double play that Weeks screwed up tonight.

 

So, the stats and the fans seem to point to Durham being the slightly worse defender than Weeks. But one play proves that Weeks is a worse defender than a guy we've all hardly seen first hand?

[BraunFan08]

Rickie has been much better at the plate for over three weeks now (.391 OBP since 7/6). His last two seasons were pretty good offensively. And I think he's got a chance to make a good season out of this year, too. Obviously tonight was not one of his better nights. But, I'm sticking with him.

 

He batted .235 last year. You call that pretty good offensively?

[TooLiveBrew]

That DP was anything but tailor made. Johnson came in at his legs very hard. Now, I'm not defending how badly Rickie bailed out on that throw, but I can understand why he felt rushed.

 

This is my main point on tonight's misplays by Weeks. Looking at them objectively, the DP was not easy (might not have been hard, but it wasn't easy), and the ball Fukudome hit was scorched, and one that Durham probably had next to no shot to get. The sheer fact that Weeks got his glove on that ball was what led to so much disappointment on that play. Many starting 2B can't even get to that kind of ball. Just mo.

 

I don't discount fans feeling like Rickie has proven that he finally needs to prove himself. What I think is overreacting is declaring that he's finally 'done' because of a couple plays from an emotional game. It's not like Rickie's the reason we lost alone, though I'm pretty sure that argument will get made again. There were missed calls on the basepaths that went against us, Torres stunk mightily, Yost stuck with Sabathia WAY too long... I'm sure there are more.

 

 

He batted .235 last year. You call that pretty good offensively?

 

On its own, BA is a terrible way to gauge production. That's when you hear that Adam Dunn sucks.

 

Just as a reminder for people, Rickie's sporting a July OPS of .837 (.366 OBP), and he's been extraordinarily hot of late -- .450 OBP last 14 days. I think 'giving up' on him right now would be poor timing.

[Bucky Rules]

He batted .235 last year. You call that pretty good offensively?

He had a .374 OBP last season. That's well above average. Along with that he slugged a very respectable .433 for an OPS of .807. So, yes... I do call that pretty good.

[BraunFan08]

He batted .235 last year. You call that pretty good offensively?

 

On its own, BA is a terrible way to gauge production. That's when you hear that Adam Dunn sucks.

 

Just as a reminder for people, Rickie's sporting a July OPS of .837 (.366 OBP), and he's been extraordinarily hot of late -- .450 OBP last 14 days. I think 'giving up' on him right now would be poor timing.

 

Adam Dunn has 29 homeruns. Weeks who was hyped at one point as having more power than Fielder has 9. I'm not looking solely at batting average but Weeks has been overall a huge disappointment. There was no one more excited about him than I was after we drafted him but my gut feeling is he'll never become a complete player.

[rluzinski]

Adam Dunn has 29 homeruns. Weeks who was hyped at one point as having more power than Fielder has 9.

 

Dunn is a corner outfielder. Compare Weeks to a 2B. And I don't blame anyone for being disappointed in him but at this point, it's water under the bridge. He was the second overall pick and at this point, it doesn't matter.

[danzig6767]

TooLiveBrew wrote:

This is my main point on tonight's misplays by Weeks. Looking at them objectively, the DP was not easy (might not have been hard, but it wasn't easy), and the ball Fukudome hit was scorched, and one that Durham probably had next to no shot to get. The sheer fact that Weeks got his glove on that ball was what led to so much disappointment on that play. Many starting 2B can't even get to that kind of ball. Just mo.

Sorry, i can't agree at all on the play where Fukudome was at the plate. I had the play on my DVR and the ball wasn't scorched, he hit it off the end of the bat and the ball was hit medium grounder speed, enough time to bounce three times before getting to Weeks. There was no great range involved either by Weeks just getting a glove on the ball. Weeks took two small steps to his right and instead of just backhanding the ball, he chose to fall on the ground while trying to backhand it for whatever reason. At most Weeks moved 3-5 feet to his right, IMO it was closer to an error than hit after watching the play multiple times. Durham may have also bungled the backhand, but i have zero doubt he'd have got a glove on it, the play initially looked way tougher than it really was.

 

That's no surprise to me though. While Weeks has improved at balls hit right at him and here and there he'll make a great play, Rickie has poor hands when he has to range to either side of him. Balls way to often bounce off or under his glove on boarderline hit/error plays because he's just not an instinctual defensive player, like that Fukudome ball, Rickie should have fielded that ball. If that was to Counsell, i'd bet 8 or 9 times out of 10 that Craig at worst gets one out from that ball.

 

[DougJones43]

Thanks to Rickie's antics tonight, Jeff Suppan was only able to spend one day as the butt of my avatar.

[TooLiveBrew]

Sorry, i can't agree at all on the play where Fukudome was at the plate. I had the play on my DVR and the ball wasn't scorched, he hit it off the end of the bat and the ball was hit medium grounder speed, enough time to bounce three times before getting to Weeks. There was no great range involved either by Weeks just getting a glove on the ball. Weeks took two small steps to his right and instead of just backhanding the ball, he chose to fall on the ground while trying to backhand it for whatever reason.

 

Then my recall was too dramatic, for certain. This DVR thing sounds pretty cool. I know Weeks didn't make good plays tonight, I just thought the plays weren't routine or easy. The reason I felt that way on the grounder was how hard I thought it was hit, so that sounds moot. I just remember reacting to that play by wondering if Durham would've had a shot at it. It's an odd tradeoff at 2B, where one guy has the hands & the other the range necessary to be a good 2B.

 

 

IMO it was closer to an error than hit after watching the play multiple times.

 

I trust that you're being fair, but sometimes watching it multiple times & esp. in slow-motion can make a play appear easier.

[danzig6767]

Sorry, i can't agree at all on the play where Fukudome was at the plate. I had the play on my DVR and the ball wasn't scorched, he hit it off the end of the bat and the ball was hit medium grounder speed, enough time to bounce three times before getting to Weeks. There was no great range involved either by Weeks just getting a glove on the ball. Weeks took two small steps to his right and instead of just backhanding the ball, he chose to fall on the ground while trying to backhand it for whatever reason.

 

Then my recall was too dramatic, for certain. This DVR thing sounds pretty cool. I know Weeks didn't make good plays tonight, I just thought the plays weren't routine or easy. The reason I felt that way on the grounder was how hard I thought it was hit, so that sounds moot. I just remember reacting to that play by wondering if Durham would've had a shot at it. It's an odd tradeoff at 2B, where one guy has the hands & the other the range necessary to be a good 2B.

 

 

IMO it was closer to an error than hit after watching the play multiple times.

 

I trust that you're being fair, but sometimes watching it multiple times & esp. in slow-motion can make a play appear easier.

Actually, i wasn't watching it the other times in slow motion. All that a DVR does is record a show and i just watched that play multiple times by rewinding it. In fact i'm watching it again right now, the ball wasn't hit overly hard like i initially thought when i first saw the play. At first glance it almost looked like Weeks semi-dove for the ball, but really he just ranged over two steps to his right and he let the ball eat him up on a backhand. Unfortunately for Rickie and the Brewers, i've seen that happen to him to often. He's poor with his backhand compared to better infielders.

 

If there was any defense for Weeks on the play that i can see, maybe he misjudged how hard the ball actually was hit because it kinda looks like the only reason to go down like he did was when an infielder is protecting himself on a bullet one hopper. I see no other reason why he went down to field the ball given it was so close to him, he didn't need to dive to get to the ball at all. If he had actually dove, the ball would have hit him in the chest. I'm not exaggerating in thinking even Prince playing second could have at least go a glove on the ball.

Oh well, it is what it is. I'm sure Weeks works extremely hard on his defense and it has improved, but like a naturally bad shooter in basketball, even if he practices by shooting all the time, he should improve, but there likely isn't a high ceiling to how much better he'll realistically get.

 

[bcf5575]

weeks choked last night. the ball by fukadome should have been at least one out. the domino effect caused CC to throw more pitches and go 6 2/3 instead of 7+. not to mention the momentum that was lost after the big offensive inning.
the throwing error - weeks addmitted that he "never got a grip on the ball". then why did you throw it?? that is a terrible excuse - if you dont have a grip on the ball you dont throw it.

I am curious to see how yost will handle this tonite. there is a time to stand by you players, and a time to to call them to the office and say "You need to play better than that. You arent starting tonite." I know my choice, because right now I dont trust him in another tight game...

[Postseason2006]

Why keep playing Rickie anyhow? His defense stinks. His offense is sporadic and his baserunning is even worse.

 

The RiK Weeks experiment is over.