Yost: Rickie's "doing fine," but has "never achieved"

[sheethead]

Not only has Weeks been hot for 2.5 weeks, but his career OBP is virtually identical to Durham's.

 

How can two weeks of production + career numbers > season to date production + career numbers? I don't understand that equation, but its essentially what has been used here. That being said, thank God I don't make the decisions as Rickie has been great this series.

[Gobias Industries]

For those who can't wait to see Durham will probably get their chance against Zambrano and Harden; two nasty RH'ers.

[Bucky Rules]

How can two weeks of production + career numbers > season to date production + career numbers?

It's not... I'm simply saying he's hot now - and therefore possibly turning his season around. And I demonstrated that he's likely to be better than Durham the rest of the way given their career numbers and the current stage of their careers. You chose to select one sentence out of my response to criticize when the rest of that portion of the post was relative to the point. Not an uncommon tactic unfortunately.

 

If player A is 25 years old and has played in the major leagues for three plus years, and player B is a couple months shy of 37 and has had a long MLB career, which one would you bet on to outperform their career averages for the rest of this season? I'm pretty sure I made that point in my last post. For reasons that I can't explain, you just ignored it.

[Roscoe Chill]

Agreed on Phillips, but Howard was held down in the minors by Philly to keep him cheaper in his prime years. Hence why Howard was pissed at them.

 

Ryan Howard was in the minors because of someone named Jim Thome.

[TooLiveBrew]

No, the Phillies traded for Jim Thome when they should have just gone with Howard, who was MLB ready. It was a strange move.

[Roscoe Chill]

Maybe so, but the Phillies didn't consciously say let's keep Howard's price low and go get Jim Thome!

[TooLiveBrew]

Actually, that's pretty much what Howard thought. That's why he was really, really pissed at the Phillies.

[Roscoe Chill]

The Phillies signed Thome after Howard completed A ball.

[TooLiveBrew]

And he promptly posted a 1.021 OPS in AA, before being promoted to AAA (.956 OPS) at age 24. He was drafted #5 overall out of college, and was MLB ready. At best, the Phils signed Thome in spite of Howard (idioctic, given their market size). At worst, they signed him to keep Howard down & cheaper (dirty pool & shameless tactics).

 

If the Phillies didn't have scouts that could tell them that Howard was MLB-ready, they should have hired new scouts. He posted a 133 OPS+ the next season. Like I said, at best, the acquisition was made in spite of Howard.

[Ennder]

Look at how late Brandon Phillips and to a lesser extent Ryan Howard developed.

 

Agreed on Phillips, but Howard was held down in the minors by Philly to keep him cheaper in his prime years. Hence why Howard was pissed at them.

 

 

 

 

This is sort of a common misconception about Howard. At age 23 he put up an .883 OPS in A ball and a lot of that came later in the season. In 2004 he put up good numbers in AA and AAA as a normal level of development. It wasn't until he was 25 that he was held down and then he was up after 61 games. It had nothing to do with keeping him cheaper and everything to do with him being blocked by Thome who went down with an injury. He also couldn't hit lefties at all for quite some time so still had holes in his game to exploit.

 

To compare Fielder to him, Fielder had a better year in A ball at age 19 than Howard did at 23. His 2005 stats in AAA at age 21 were very close to what Howard did in AAA at 24.

 

On a normal team Howard probably would have been a september callup in 2004 or they would have made room for him in 2005 by making a trade to start the season. If Howard was held back at all it was by about 2-3 months at most.

 

As for Weeks, the whole 2nd pick in the draft thing gets way overblown. It was a crappy draft class, Weeks was rushed more than most of the players and he had to deal with playing through injuries for a good part of it. Sure in hindsight I'd rather have Nick Markakis or maybe Danks, but most of that list is looking worse than Weeks so far. All Weeks needs to do is take the skillset he has already shown and raise his AVG by about 20 points and he will be a very solid player, his defense is even looking better this year.

 

Delmon Young

Rickie Weeks

Kyle Sleeth

Tim Stauffer

Chris Lubanski

Ryan Harvey

Nick Markakis

Paul Maholm

John Danks

Ian Stewart

[dlk9s]

logan3825[/b]]The splits on Hall/Branyan suggest that platooning would be a big benefit. The splits on Durham/Weeks suggest they would not.

Exactly, which is why Durham needs to be installed as the starter. Rickie didn't get it done this year (surprise surprise), so its time to move on to an achiever. Give Weeks a start or two a week, and he has proved to be an effective pinch-hitter. We are going for it, and .326 OBP in the leadoff position isn't gonna get it.

12 career pinch-hit plate appearances.

If ever there was a time to scream, "SAMPLE SIZE," this is it.

 

[TooLiveBrew]

This is sort of a common misconception about Howard. At age 23 he put up an .883 OPS in A ball and a lot of that came later in the season. In 2004 he put up good numbers in AA and AAA as a normal level of development. It wasn't until he was 25 that he was held down and then he was up after 61 games. It had nothing to do with keeping him cheaper and everything to do with him being blocked by Thome who went down with an injury. He also couldn't hit lefties at all for quite some time so still had holes in his game to exploit.

 

NDOGG, I was wrong, & I'm sorry. I guess I got caught up a bit in the drama of the story -- you were correct, sir. I still feel that the Thome signing was in spite of Howard, though it looks pretty clear that there were no evil intentions. Howard was ready to mash at worst by age 25, and the Phils seemed to be concerned that he wouldn't be. There's some funny irony to me in this (yes, different organizations, but...) -- I remember that when Thome came up with the Indians they brought him up & platooned him. So the guy that blocked a slugger who still had work to do on facing LHP was himself brought up prior to being polished v. LHP http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

 

As for Weeks, the whole 2nd pick in the draft thing gets way overblown.

 

Agreed -- it usually does get overblown. It's hard to wrap the mind around baseball sometimes, but even a #1 'sure thing' pick is not guaranteed to even be a MLB player, let alone the star that being selected that highly would seem to warrant. I think the worst-case scenario with Rickie in terms of 'what we have' is a player that's going to put up a line around .250/.350/.400+, playing good enough defense at 2B.

 

While it can be frustrating to see Rickie make some mistakes with the leather, that play from last night's game where Durham couldn't get the ball back up the middle should help put Weeks's defense in perspective. It's simply exaggerated here at times how bad he actually is.

[bjkrautk]

Re: Thome / Howard. Don't forget that Jim Thome came through the minors as a 3b. (Can't remember whether the Indians acquired Matt Williams or Travis Fryman first, but one of the two prompted a move across the diamond.) It's a lot easier to accept a platoon at 3b than it is at one of the most demanding offensive positions on the field (1b). Also, Cleveland could get extra ABs for the platoon-mate via the DH.

[TooLiveBrew]

Good points, bj. Now that you mention it, I do remember young Thome was initially a 3B

[sheethead]

How can two weeks of production + career numbers > season to date production + career numbers?

It's not

That's what I thought.

 

[silversurferr]

Ennder, Well argued about Weeks; I agree about his potential, progression, and particularly that his defense is strangely underrated despite the big improvement from last year. However, for the rest of this year, the team needs a finished offensive product to lead off. It drives me nuts that Weeks cannot make consistent solid contact. Yeah he walks alot and gets beaned alot, and occasionally mashes the ball with scary-power, but usually when he swings he either pops the ball up or whiffs at the low outside slider. Maybe if he focused on hitting the ball on the ground rather than driving the ball he would hit more liners and tough grounders? Bigger bat would help, too. I am convinced he will be a solid hitter, but I am also convinced that he will not develop into a good lead-off hitter.

[Bucky Rules]

Sheethead... why do you bother? You have no interest in having any sort of intelligent discussion. Your only goal is to see how you can manipulate the fewest words possible out of somebody's (and not just my) posts, completely twist the meaning, and claim victory. It's juvenile. Remind me the next time you say anything, to just ignore you. You're a complete waste of time. But, I guess that's what people do when they can't legitimately defend their position.

 

EDIT: Is it possible to put somebody on "ignore" on this site, so their posts just don't show up when you log in?

[PeaveyFury]

Sheethead... why do you bother? You have no interest in having any sort of intelligent discussion. Your only goal is to see how you can manipulate the fewest words possible out of somebody's (and not just my) posts, completely twist the meaning, and claim victory. It's juvenile. Remind me the next time you say anything, to just ignore you. You're a complete waste of time. But, I guess that's what people do when they can't legitimately defend their position.

 

This post is not acceptable here. If this discussion can't continue civilly, this thread will be locked.

[sheethead]

I have never claimed victory in any topic. I only defend my opinions (durham over weeks for example) when they are under attack by other "demonstrated" opinions. And trust me, I have had pieces of my posts disected against me as well.

[logan82]

I have never claimed victory in any topic. I only defend my opinions (durham over weeks for example) when they are under attack by other "demonstrated" opinions. And trust me, I have had pieces of my posts disected against me as well.

The problem, at least in this thread, is that you haven't shown anything to support your opinion. It is confusing where you are getting your opinion that Durham should start over Weeks from.

[lukevan]

I only defend my opinions

 

Except that when you say,

 

That's what I thought.

 

nothing is added to the discussion except an "I told you so", even though clearly you haven't "won" any argument and it's not really a defense as much as it is offense.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Weeks might have "achieved" his way to the bench.

[T B0NE 10]

I am just about to give up on Rickie Weeks and all his potential that could be a could've been

[bobskube]

Rickie is my favorite player and he is a real good kid, but he needs to be platooned now. Ray Durham will give better production.

 

Also, they should do a three man platoon with Hall, Branyan, and Counsell. Counsell can play against junk ball righties and curve and slider specialist. Branyan can play against fastball pitchers.

[Roscoe Chill]

I really see no point in starting Rickie Weeks over Ray Durham in a playoff race anymore.