Curious if Piniella will test Harden's injury history by risking higher pitch counts?

[2008 world champs]

Next week the Brewers had better show the patience with Harden as they did with Lincecum. I know Lincecum was battling the flu and thus did not have his "A" stuff, but Harden's injury concerns are so widely known I can't see how attacking him early should even enter Yost's mind.

[naivin]

Just heard on the Score that Len Casper indicated last night that Lou is considering a bit of a platoon situation for one of the spots in the rotation (I know, can you believe it?!), with Harden and Marquis, to try to protect Harden and limit his pitches. Essentially alternating those two here and there when that turn comes up. We'll see if he actually goes through with it.

[cwolf2012]

I hope we get the Marquis starts.

[2008 world champs]

Platoon Marquis and Harden....? That is way different then Bush/McClung. Wow. I know the injury factor is a concern with Harden but Marquis is just not good especilally as a "2" SP

[datrain711]

Just heard on the Score that Len Casper indicated last night that Lou is considering a bit of a platoon situation for one of the spots in the rotation (I know, can you believe it?!), with Harden and Marquis, to try to protect Harden and limit his pitches. Essentially alternating those two here and there when that turn comes up. We'll see if he actually goes through with it.

 

Unless they think something is already wrong, I can't imagine them giving Marquis some of Harden's starts. Marquis has been an absolute disaster in the 2nd half of seasons throughout his career. They acquired Harden to get another ace. Giving some of Harden's innings to Marquis would be insane, unless there is something there that we haven't heard of yet.

[jeffy]

Ramirez at home has a 1.091 OPS, yet .640 on the road. Fukudome is .972/.611.

 

Assuming there is someone on the bench that is better on the road, I wonder if Pinella will go to a home/road platoon http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

 

[Fear The Chorizo]

The only logical scenario for a Harden/Marquis platoon is if the Cubs are 8-9 games clear of anyone else in the division, and they want to make sure Harden's ready to go in the playoffs.

 

Since there are currently 2 teams within 2 games of them in their own division, and a good number of NL east teams within 5-6 games of them for a possible wild card slot, platooning Harden with Marquis is a comically bad idea for the Cubs, and a great idea for the rest of the NL. That would be like Yost saying that Sheets is going to platoon with McClung now that we've passed the Cardinals by 0.002 percentage points for the wild card lead to make sure he's right for the playoffs.

 

With the Cubs' september schedule, there's no way they can afford to rest pitchers/players and coast during august and expect to have a comfortable lead in the division 30 games from now.

[naivin]

The only logical scenario for a Harden/Marquis platoon is if the Cubs are 8-9 games clear of anyone else in the division, and they want to make sure Harden's ready to go in the playoffs.

I don't see it that way at all. I would say its more a case of Lou looking at Harden's injury history and lack of work the past couple years, and considering the possibility of letting Marquis make 3 or 4 of his starts starts, vs. seeing Harden wear down or get hurt again and being forced to watch Marquis make 15 of his starts.

[Fear The Chorizo]

If Lou's that concerned with Harden's workload/injury history, why does he leave him in his second start as a Cub for 112 pitches?

 

Also, Marquis is still in their regular 5-man rotation - as things stand right now he's making 15 starts down the stretch regardless, unless they give his rotation spot to Sean Marshall - Marshall's been pretty good this year, but nowhere near as dominant as Harden can be.

 

I think instead of a platoon that allows Harden to completely miss turns in the rotation that he may be given and extra day or two between his starts, and use a combination of Marquis + Marshall to bridge the gap. Zambrano, Lilly, and Dempster would still pitch on regular rest, and Harden probably starts every 6th game or so.

[TooLiveBrew]

Hardent

 

This looks like it was a typo, but I think we may be onto a great nickname for the guy.

[Fear The Chorizo]

haha, yeah it was a typo, but that is definitely fitting

[TooLiveBrew]

That's great... I always feel like the best nicknames are the ones that come about organically.

[naivin]

If Lou's that concerned with Harden's workload/injury history, why does he leave him in his second start as a Cub for 112 pitches?

 

Well he hadn't pitched for over a week, and perhaps he's actually planning to go through with this.

 

Also, Marquis is still in their regular 5-man rotation - as things stand right now he's making 15 starts down the stretch regardless, unless they give his rotation spot to Sean Marshall - Marshall's been pretty good this year, but nowhere near as dominant as Harden can be.

 

For the record, that is actually how it was described, relative to what Lou is thinking. The rotation would essentially be Zambrano, Lilly, Dempster, Marshall, and Harden/a little bit of Marquis.

[MickeyDavis]

If Lou wants Harden to skip some starts then all I can say is thank you Lou.

[cubfan1126]

You misunderstood Kasper. He was simply speculating because of Harden's durability.

 

Marquis is already in the rotation. It would be Marshall that would be inserted according to the speculation.

 

Also as far as last night, he was NEVER in trouble. I think we can all agree that 112 pitches when you are constantly working out of jams is a lot more burdensome. And even if we can't agree, I choose to believe it.

[TooLiveBrew]

I think 112 pitches is pretty much 112 pitches, unless you're of the belief that Harden intentionally throws less effective/stressful pitches when he's not 'in jams'. I think it's more mentally stressful to have to pitch around runners on base, but not physically moreso. It's probably also a heckuva lot more stressful to fans than it is to professional pitchers.

[Fear The Chorizo]

112 pitches is 112 pitches when you're talking about a guy who hasn't come close to 200 innings in a season since 2004, and for a guy who at 89 IP this year has eclipsed his innings pitched for the 2006-2007 seasons combined. I agree that there's a difference between 100+ pitches in 5 innings compared to 7 innings of work, but I think he's too fragile to risk any effects from an extended outing by his standards.

 

Harden has such good stuff that he almost NEVER is in trouble - that still hasn't stopped him from living on the DL. It's not like his previous DL stints were due to multiple 125 pitch outings. His past injury history shows that he doesn't wear down, he simply breaks.

[Thurston Fluff]

I think Cub fan is right to a degree. The problem Harden has is throwing too many pitches/inning. Last night he threw .56 pitches/IP less than normal this year. I took a look at his pitches/inning vs Sheets, Zambrano and Sabathia just for the heck of it.

 

Harden pitches an average of 16.56 pitches/inning pitched. He had on month (june) that was well under 6 at 15.57 to drive down the P/IP a little every other month he had at least 16.3/IP.

Zambrano was the lowest at 15.45/IP.

Sheets was 15.46/IP

Sabathia was 15.47/IP. Like Harden he had one odd month (April) that was 18.87/IP so that drove his average up a little.

 

Take it for what it's worth but I think there is some correlation between Pitches/IP and injury. Harden would be example A.

[tristarscoop]

Just read this in this week's SI power Rankings:

 

Three reasons why Cubs fans should be wary of Rich Harden:

1. He's brittle as can be and recently lost velocity on his fastball. (Just last week, he publicly stated that his arm felt "dead.")

2. He's a fly-ball pitcher, that usually doesn't fly in Wrigley Field.

3. Billy Beane gave Harden up, even though he had him signed through 2009. The modest haul Oakland received combined with the timing of this transaction (weeks away from the deadline) leads me to believe that Beane just wanted to get rid of Harden ASAP. And remember, Beane usually has a far better feel for personnel than his peers.

[Fatter than Joey]

3. Billy Beane gave Harden up, even though he had him signed through 2009. The modest haul Oakland received combined with the timing of this transaction (weeks away from the deadline) leads me to believe that Beane just wanted to get rid of Harden ASAP.

 

Yeah -- I agree with this, however, I think it is reflected in the price. The Cubs went shopping in the "bumps and dings" -- section they may get screwed, they may get a great value.

[naivin]

Yeah -- I agree with this, however, I think it is reflected in the price. The Cubs went shopping in the "bumps and dings" -- section they may get screwed, they may get a great value.

I would agree this seemed to be about a bird in the hand - with the bird being Gallagher, Patterson, etc. A team like Oakland can't really take the risk with a guy like Harden. If they hang onto him now and he gets hurt again, they would basically be left with nothing. If he gets hurt now, teh impact on teh Cubs is not nearly as significant. It could work out great for the Cubs, but Oakland will almost assuredly end up with at least a couple MLB players for a few years.

[tristarscoop]

I enjoy the image of the Cubs shopping a scratch and dent sale - or like, Seven Mile Fair.