Curious if Piniella will test Harden's injury history by risking higher pitch counts?

[scottfossum]

I was under the impression that the cubs would be careful with Harden by keeping him on a strict picth count. 100 or under. He threw 112 tonight in a great outing tonight. lou may be tempted to press Hardens pitch count with Woods on the DL Marmoll all ready having over 50 appearances and will now be the closer for awhile. It will be interesting to see how Harden and the rest of the cubs pitching holds up during this exciting pennant race the next month.

[Braminano]

I watched the game on MLB.tv tonight. Lou was about to make a double switch and bring in Howry/Fukudome. When he went to the mound, Harden convinced Pinella to let him stay in the game. I don't know how big of a factor tonight's game is, but if Harden continues to throw so many pitches over the course of 5 innings, that pitch count may be extended just so he can go a little deeper.

[TooLiveBrew]

What is the title of the thread trying to say? I legitimately don't understand, sorry -- not taking a potshot at you, scottfossum. Is it a quote/paraphrase from a postgame interview?

[scottfossum]

Not a quote, I was just curious what people with more baseball knowledge then me thought about Harden's pitch count. And if Piniella was the type of manager that may push a pitchers pitch count.No offence taken, It was a poorly worded title.

[TooLiveBrew]

I don't think that 112 is much cause for concern (as an isolated occurance), since it got through 7 IP (16 P/Inn.). It would probably be unwise to ask Harden to go out there & throw 115-120 pitches per start, but he was critical tonight to keeping the Cubs in an important game. I guess in that sense, I do get the impression from Piniella that he'll lean on a guy a bit more than some managers would... but that's admittedly just a 'seems like' thing.

 

Harden looked very, very good tonight. Didn't look to have a 'tired arm' at all from the litte I watched.

 

 

When he went to the mound, Harden convinced Pinella to let him stay in the game.

 

That right there would worry me as a Cubs fan. Sure, no harm done tonight, but I am of the mind that the manager needs to have the say when it comes to pitching changes. When in the game was Piniella considering this? If it was prior to the 7th, then it's really no big deal, since Harden was likely under 100 pitches.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Pinella is definitely a manager to push the limit on a pitch count. Harden just doesn't throw more than 100 pitches, yet he went 110 or 111 in his second start with the Cubs tonight.

 

If he's healthy, he's nails - but extending him now and expecting him to take the ball every 5th day when he hasn't come close to a normal innings workload for a starter the past 3 seasons is definitely rolling the dice. Honestly, it's probably a gamble the Cubs need to take to give them the best shot for the division, but it's one that they'd rather not have to make since it really could impact Harden's effectiveness come playoff time.

[areacodes]

When in the game was Piniella considering this? If it was prior to the 7th, then it's really no big deal, since Harden was likely under 100 pitches.

It was in the 7th with I believe 2 outs and Piniella said something along the lines of "Get Fukudome up and ready for a double switch" as Harden was in a 3-1 count and over 100 pitches (I think around 105). He then walked the guy and Lou went out to the mound and was convinced not to take Harden out.

 

[TooLiveBrew]

Well then, yes, I would worry about Harden's health in the future. Tonight's start (as in, his pitch count) might prove to be an aberration, but we'll have to wait & see.

[danzig6767]

Harden is silly good

 

I never cheer for players to get hurt, even on rival teams, but i gotta admit that i wouldn't mind Harden getting say a strained muscle of some kind when we have to face the Cubs now or in he playoffs because i dread the thought of our very righthanded lineup having to go up against a health Rich Harden.

 

I certainly understand why Beane wasn't able to get a crazy good package for Harden given his vast injury history, but if that guy can buck the odds and stay healthy this year and most of next year, that's terrible news the the NL Central.

[JoeHova]

Harden seems kind of like Sheets to me, in the sense that if he's healthy, you might as well use him as much as possible (within reason, of course, no 150 pitch outings). Rich is even more injury prone than Ben, so maybe it's different, but if a guy is extremely likely to get hurt, you might as well use him hard and get what you can out of him when he isn't.

[Postseason2006]

Well, the Cubs are 1-1 in his starts so far and a lucky 1-1 pulling out Saturday's choke job. Who's even betting the Cub get in at this point considering they are starting to slip? Lou may have to work Harden just to make the playoffs now and some of their players who were playing over their heads offensively are starting to fall to earth.

[jeffy]

I watched the game on MLB.tv tonight. Lou was about to make a double switch and bring in Howry/Fukudome. When he went to the mound, Harden convinced Pinella to let him stay in the game.

 

Is that even possible? When making a double switch, my understanding was the manager has to go to the umpire first.

[sheethead]

some of their players who were playing over their heads offensively are starting to fall to earth.

cough*Fukudome*coughcough*Ramirez*cough

[Fear The Chorizo]

It definitely didn't look like Harden talked Lou into letting him stay in the game - by reading Lou's lips, the first thing out of his mouth when he got to the mound was asking Harden if "you got one more batter in you?". I think Lou was 50/50 on whether to pull him or not on his way out, and decided about halfway out that he was going to let Harden face one more hitter.

 

It wasn't like Lou went for the baseball and Harden refused to give it up.

[cubfan1126]

some of their players who were playing over their heads offensively are starting to fall to earth.

cough*Fukudome*coughcough*Ramirez*cough

 

Excuse me, but since Fukudome has never played in the US previously, nobody knows where his head is, so how is he over it?

 

Ramirez numbers in his 4 full years with the Cubs

average .318, .302, .291, & .310

HR's 32, 30, 38, & 26

OPS .951, .926, .912, & .915

 

How exactly is pre-break numbers of .285, 17, & .901 playing over his head????

[jhart05]

How exactly is pre-break numbers of .285, 17, & .901 playing over his head????

 

 

 

Wishful thinking???

[cubfan1126]

In regards to Harden, his only problem was that he went to 3 ball counts frequently. The D'back had exactly one (1) good swing on him and that left the yard.

 

It was just one of those games. Our guys hit 2-3 395 foot flyballs to dead center, 2-3 gap line drives that Young ran down, and 2 balls that were caught just in front of the LF fence. Forget about it and move on.

[datrain711]

In regards to Harden, his only problem was that he went to 3 ball counts frequently. The D'back had exactly one (1) good swing on him and that left the yard.

 

It was just one of those games. Our guys hit 2-3 395 foot flyballs to dead center, 2-3 gap line drives that Young ran down, and 2 balls that were caught just in front of the LF fence. Forget about it and move on.

 

Just wanted to say that i think you are a good addition to this board. Sometimes people on here need a dose on reality when they make bold statements such as the Ramirez one above. I guess it is part of getting caught up in the excitement.

 

Do you think the Cubs will make a move to get a LH bat with some power for the bench? Seems to me that Ward is just about useless at this point.

[datrain711]

i have to say, Harden was absolutely nasty last night. The D-Backs looked like a high school team chasing after his pitches.

[olliegjw]

Is that even possible? When making a double switch, my understanding was the manager has to go to the umpire first.

Only if its their 2nd trip to the mound in the inning. On the first trip, he has to tell the umpire before he signals the bullpen.

[cubfan1126]

Unfortunately for us you are right about Ward. His biggest attribute this year is drawing walks but then ya gotta have somebody run for him.

[Bring Back the Stein]

May Harden have many more gem-of-a-loss results like he had last night.

[Fear The Chorizo]

The biggest difference between the Cubs offense now and when they were rolling is that they're not drawing walks at nearly the same clip. Their team OBP has taken a big hit in July. Every team hits into tough luck now and again, but the Cubs have been scuffling to get on base for a long enough stretch to cause concern. I think part of the "over the head" description of Ramirez was that he nearly passed his career high for walks in a season by mid-June. Since then, his walk rate has plummeted. The rest of his offensive numbers were right in line with his career norm, but that walk rate/OBP was scary good for awhile with him.

 

A pitcher with Harden's stuff is going to have tons of 3 ball counts if he's not throwing everything for strikes - hitters simply don't want to swing at most of what he's throwing, since it's absolute filth.

 

A month ago, the Cubs had 6-7 regulars who were pushing a .400 OBP or higher, now they have only 1 in Theriot. It's not like they've completely stunk offensively, but there was simply no way they could sustain the kind of offensive success they were having for 162 games.

[TooLiveBrew]

Who's even betting the Cub get in at this point considering they are starting to slip?

 

Anyone that likes to bet on the favorite, according to odds.

[Glennron]

The Cubs have walked only four times in the four games since the All-Star break, which is pretty funny coming from the team that led the majors on OBP. Ramirez and Fukudome aren't playing over the heads, they just have the most extreme home/road splits imaginable. Ramirez at home has a 1.091 OPS, yet .640 on the road. Fukudome is .972/.611.