CC Sabathia--What else can you say

[endaround]

No not really. Halladay did it in April.

[zzzmanwitz]

Roy Halladay, April 12th and 17th, 2008. In fact, here were his april starts, pretty impressive:

 

April 1st - 7.0 IP, 3 ER

April 6th - 8.0 IP, 4 ER

April 12th - 9.0 IP, 1 ER, CG

April 17th - 9.0 IP, 4 ER, CG

April 23rd - 8.0 IP, 5 ER

April 29th - 8.2 IP, 1 ER, CG (gave up 1 run in the 9th to lose 0-1)

 

His last start was also a complete game. So we will see if he does it again.

[kramnoj]

And to address the small marketism talk - we have stupid money tied up in the bullpen. That is not sustainable and not a wise investment.

 

Most of the money tied up in the bullpen is this year only. That's not an investment. The Brewers thought they had a decent team at every position except bullpen, and a lot of the rest of the team was fairly inexpensive. Melvin took gambles on guys who had been successful in the past. I don't really see it as a long term strategy, just as a way to make this year's team better, the budget was there, and it didn't cost anything but money.

[Paulus88]

No not really. Halladay did it in April.

I think maybe he meant consecutive games as opposed to consecutive starts.

[Oldcity]

Sheets also had a stretch in 2005 where he had three consecutive 9-inning starts. Two of the three were complete games; one game went into extras and Matt Wise closed it out in the tenth.

[mothershipconnection]

Had Gallardo not gotten hurt, I wonder if Melvin makes the CC trade? I still would have. Imagine that threesome

 

I had shivers when I thought about this the day the trade went down. Seriously, our rotation would be so ridiculously stacked with those three at the top, a hot Manny Parra, and whoever takes the last spot would be among the top #5's I can remember recently.

[zzzmanwitz]

I think maybe he meant consecutive games as opposed to consecutive starts.

 

Well, I guess if we are going to pick the one time of the year that is possible, I guess we aren't going to have an easy time finding someone who has done that. Especially given the fact that the pitchers with the capability of going back to back CGs are more than likely elected to the All-Star Game.

[brwrsfan]

It could have happened back in the day when pitchers would regularily pitch 50+ times a year, especially toward the end of the season. I'll bet there are pitchers that have thrown both games of doubleheaders...though not sure if they would have completed them...and I'm way too lazy to look it up!

[naivin]

Sheets isn't really injury prone...

 

He's never had any arm or shoulder problems

Ummm...yeah. The Brewers/Sheets can refer to that Lat thing as a back injury all they want because that muscle also runs down the back, but let's face it, that was in fact a shoulder injury and it cost him the better part of two seasons.

 

And that 16% number is fine...unfortunatley, the last three seasons, he has made less than 50% of his starts, so I guess I would say recent history wouuld suggest he may be injury prone. If he can get through this year, that would certainly be a positive (although the fact that it would be in a contract year would give the cynic in me reason for concern). There has been plenty of suspicion that he doesn't take particularly good care of himself. Is that true? I don't know, but I suspect the Brewers do. Is he taking better care of himself because of the money on the line? Will he once he gets a contract (as he continues to get older?)? I don't know what the answers are, but I am dying to see how it plays out. In the meantime, I'd pitch him into the ground this year, because I see little chance he'll be back.

[cwolf2012]

In 2007, Sheets made 24 starts.

 

In 2006, Sheets made 17 starts.

 

In 2005, Sheets made 22 starts.

 

That's 63/105 starts, which isn't great, but is significantly more than half. On top of that, he made every start in 2004 and has only missed 1 this year.

 

There are far more injury prone pitchers out there than Sheets.

[EinhornIsFinkle]

In 2007, Sheets made 24 starts.

 

In 2006, Sheets made 17 starts.

 

In 2005, Sheets made 22 starts.

 

That's 63/105 starts, which isn't great, but is significantly more than half. On top of that, he made every start in 2004 and has only missed 1 this year.

 

There are far more injury prone pitchers out there than Sheets.

You are also not counting the high number of starts he was forced to leave early or was on a limited pitch count because he was coming back from injury.

 

[TSack27]

It could have happened back in the day when pitchers would regularily pitch 50+ times a year, especially toward the end of the season. I'll bet there are pitchers that have thrown both games of doubleheaders...though not sure if they would have completed them...and I'm way too lazy to look it up!

Well, one of the Brewer research guys did look it up, and Jim Powell just said it was Wilbur Wood of the White Sox in 1975, also sandwiched around the All-Star Break.

 

[cwolf2012]

" You are also not counting the high number of starts he was forced to leave early or was on a limited pitch count because he was coming back from injury."

 

So he made a start that wasn't a start because he only went 5-6 innings? What difference is there between one of those and a bad start where he only went 5? You're grasping at straws with that argument.

 

I never made the claim that Sheets is the model of durability, but trying to act like he's Rich Harden or Chris Carpenter is faulty logic.

[Sundown Kid]

Thanks, TSack. To clarify, I was wondering about consecutive team games (which is why I typed "games" instead of "starts" hoping to provide clarity, but I apparently didn't succeed). Anyway, I would say now that it is indeed rare, having been 33 years since the feat was last accomplished.

[craigharmann]

If he wins every start the rest of the way, that would be nice. The reality is, it probably won't happen, but it's done so much for the team, the city and the psyche of both. This is a team willing to take chances to go for it, and that is an energizing thing!

[naivin]

That's 63/105 starts, which isn't great, but is significantly more than half. On top of that, he made every start in 2004 and has only missed 1 this year.

Yep, you're correct. Bad math on my part. More than half or not, that's a lot of missed starts over 3 seasons. Does that constitue injury prone? I don't know. Do I want to sign him to a 5 year/$80 million contract? Not particularly.

[Sheets4theHOF]

The problem is the Yankees are gonna sign either CC or Sheets for sure. Then you have the Red Sox. They feel like they have to answer and are going to target the other one. Who do you think wins a bidding war between the Red Sox and Brewers? What's going to happen is pretty predictable.

 

So what you're gonna have is a team that's a little worse next year, but a team that is in a much better position to lock up Hart, Fielder, and Hardy. Or they could trade Fielder or Hardy for a stud pitching prospect and promote Gamel or Esobar. Or they can stand relatively pat and maybe sign a decent Suppan like FA pitcher. The point is there is a lot of flexiblity and a rotation of Yo, Parra, Suppan, McClung, Bush wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. A step down sure, but if people are right about the AA team then reenforcements are only a year or two away.

[TooLiveBrew]

The Brewers payroll is around $90M right now, but I see it as more of a 'perfect storm' salary situation. The team has been profitable, and with the timing of the contracts, our young stars are still cheap. With the team's success, and the chance to 'go for it', it's an all-or-nothing move in a season where we might as well. We know we have Sheets & Sabathia now, our offense has been good to good enough. I hadn't checked until now, but both the offense & pitching are at 106 OPS+ & 106 ERA+. That should be a playoff-caliber duo if it can be sustained.

 

In terms of a bidding war, don't forget both LA teams, the Mets, Houston, maybe even Philly, maybe Detroit (?). The problem in trying to retain either SP aside from the bidding is the risk inherent in long pitcher contracts.

[logan82]

TooLiveBrew wrote:

In terms of a bidding war, don't forget both LA teams, the Mets, Houston, maybe even Philly, maybe Detroit (?). The problem in trying to retain either SP aside from the bidding is the risk inherent in long pitcher contracts.

Houston is a team that really makes me think we need to go for it this year. Houston shouldn't be overlooked. They spend money, but not well. I still think that's where Sheets is going next year. Sheets and a little more makes them very good.

[JenksFan5]

There is obviously a risk to signing either Sheets or Sabathia long-term when you look at Sheets' durability amd CC's body type. The Brewers have to concentrate on which one they can sign for less on both length of contract and durability. In my mind, that is Sheets.

 

For the people who say "go with Gallardo and Parra and fill in another front-line starter to replace CC or Sheets", how is this going to be possible? Bonafide aces are hard to come by and guys with the potential to become aces/young aces (e.g. Lincecum, E. Santana) are nearly untouchable according to their respective teams. You can't simply just fill in another front-line starter for less money unless there is one in development in your organization.

 

A Sheetless/CCless rotation next year scares the crap out of me so I am just going to enjoy this year and pray the Brewers can somehow coax one of their aces to stay.

[Mr QL]

I just realized me, CC Sabathia, and new Bucks player Richard Jefferson all have the same birthday. I don't believe this to be a simple coincidence.

[naivin]

For the people who say "go with Gallardo and Parra and fill in another front-line starter to replace CC or Sheets", how is this going to be possible?

I guess I don't see the issue. You can still go FA to sign a starting pitcher - you just don't have to pick from the top 2 guys out there that are going to get Zito like years/money. The trade route is also clearly a possibility - see Dan Haren and Edinson Volquez.

[tigerbrew]

If I can choose which one to keep long term, I'd certainly choose CC over Sheets. I feel that CC is the more dominant SP, a power lefty with great stuff, a much better hitter and less injury prone.

 

EDIT: Really hope that the Brewers can sign CC this offseason.

[bullox]

When do we get the shutout from him, by the way?

7/23/08

[The Ignitor]

Stupid thought, but is it possible that Mark A just falls in love with the idea of keeping CC and pushes Melvin to get it done? There has been so many positives in this CC thing, that Mark A might just see it as a must to keep the franchise building good faith and selling tickets in the community as well as on the field. Mark A is primarily a businessman versus one one of those free spending rich owner types, but you never now, he might just surprise us for a player of CC's caliber.

 

If we did not have the Suppan contract, I could really see us making a push to keep CC. As is, I still think it is a longshot to get CC, but not out of the realm of all possibility.