McClung to bullpen? -- Yost to platoon McClung and Bush -- Latest: platoon over; Bush back in rotation full-time (reply #165)

[danzig6767]

What a silly, silly idea. McClung doesn't exactly set the bar very high to begin with. I think it will be abandoned by the end of the month for sure.

My initial gut reaction is that this isn't a good idea because it will get both McClung and Bush out of their routines of starting every fifth day, but it's hard for me to believe that it's just some random bad luck in regards to the splits for Bush. The guy has been not just bad on the road, he's been miserable last year and this year, in 2006 he was pretty bad on the road also. You look at his splits since coming to the Brewers and it's crazy how not just is there a big gulf in Home/Road ERA, there is a large gulf in the secondary stats. After seeing him pitch so well at home and so terrible on the road for three straight seasons, i there any logical thought to buy into random luck as the cause vs he just sucks as a starting pitcher on the road for whatever the reason?

As for McClung, i do still feel some worry whenever he's starting a game, but since the start of June, Seth has started eight games and only once didn't allow three runs or less. The one start where he gave up more than three runs was against the Twins and i still remember that game because he was getting pinched badly, the strike zone was about the size of my mouse pad.

If i had the choice, i'd prefer McClung went to the pen and Bush pitches every fifth day, but who knows, maybe this can work out well. FWIW, it's hard for me to feel confident that Suppan gives us a better chance every fifth day than McClung does, but i do understand that a big paycheck will be the trump card since neither guy is clearly better than the other.

 

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

As you all know, I'm a Ned Yost supporter, and I disagree with this decision. The good news for you Ned Yost bashers out there is that if this doesn't work, he'll be gone next year!

[Fatter than Joey]

McBush?

 

I prefer "McBung"

 

I agree with everyone that this is a laughably bad idea. The "road" is a composite of 15 stadiums. Some Bush has struggled in, others he has pitched well in. I could understand manipulating the rotation against specific teams or parks, but at the end of the day, those probably have more to do with players than they do park location.

 

The concept that Bush is a ~2.50 ERA guy at home, and a ~6.00 ERA guy on the road is a bad one.

 

Suppan has similarly large home/road splits.

[craigharmann]

I threw my comment out there with not a whole lot of explanation. I think it's a dumb move, to begin with. There is a reason why starting pitchers aren't platooned. The reality is that now, we have a 6 man starting rotation, and a 6 man bullpen. That puts a whole lot of extra pressure on a bullpen that has been quick to implode. As the game has evolved, pitchers have now gotten to the point where they typically pitch every 5 days. So, does this mean that Bush and McClung will then be coming out of the bullpen here and there, to keep their arm fresh when they are not pitching regularly? There's more questions to this than answers. As a Brewer fan, I really hope this works. Or could this mean that Ned is assisting in the evolution of baseball?

[jeffy]

Yost talked to both Bush and McClung about the decision and said it was met with "suspicion."

 

 

 

Does that perhaps mean that they suspect that it is an idiotic idea?

[Gobias Industries]

Does that perhaps mean that they suspect that it is an idiotic idea?

Probably. Bush is a very smart guy. I don't mind Ned, but this is, without a doubt, one of his dumbest moves yet.

[naivin]

Does this mean that Bush can't even be used in the bullpen? Since they are on the road, he'll obviously do terrible, right?

 

I think this is the aspect that may be as much involved in the decision to try this then the home/road thing. These comments from Ned is the ones that struck me, and that I agree with...

 

"I want to continue pitching both instead of just burying one in the pen in a long role." - and-

 

"I'm trying to present an opportunity for each player that is conducive to his success."

 

Neither one of these guys has been particularly coming out of the bullpen, but obviously they want to keep them both on the active roster. It is certainly not ideal, but this should provide a few opportunities to each get some time out of the bullpen, and perhaps see which one does better.

 

Personally, i would probably just go with Bush, but I have to admit, his performance on the road is hard to ignore. I think this approach does provide an opportunity for the decision to settle itself, and hopefully let one guy settle into a bullpen roll, and the other to settle into the starter's roll. In the end I would be shocked if this goes more than a couple weeks or truly impacts more than 1 or 2 starts, so it probably isn't worth a whole lot of heartache.

 

So if the impact of acquiring Sabathia was 2 wins, what's the impact of this decision? An out?

[bklynbrewcrew]

Once again Yost is proving what a dope he is. Bush has been excellent the last month or so and deserves a spot in the rotation. McClung on the other hand is way too wild and one step away from imploding Turnbow style. To start McClung in St Louis of all places in a game we really need to win while Bush sits in the bullpen is idiotic. I hope the Brewers win 10-9 on monday night and Bush pitches great at home on saturday against houston so ned can end this dopey experiment early on.

[endaround]

The biggest reason this is foolish is because its wastes a roster spot. Bush won't be able to pitch most days because he has to start when they return home. So he can basically only pitch when McClung pitches and perhaps a side throwing day. So you're carrying around a guy who you can't actually use. I also imagine this means Dillon gets sent back down so they can carry an extra pitcher.

[crewcrazy]

The best part...Ned is basing this decision on 4 road starts from Seth McClung. And in those 4 road starts, McClung has gone 6 innings exactly once (and that start was on June 10).

 

Now I know how Cubs fans felt when they had those great teams a few years ago, but it all went to waste because Dusty Baker managed to do something ridiculously stupid every month. Sometimes it seems like Ned can't stay out of his own way.

[kramnoj]

The best part...Ned is basing this decision on 4 road starts from Seth McClung. And in those 4 road starts, McClung has gone 6 innings exactly once (and that start was on June 10).

 

I think this is really based on the poor road performances by Bush. That McClung has done ok on the road just gives him enough reason to make the move.

 

The funny thing is, Yost is making this decision based on numbers. He's just not following any line of thought regarding sample size or any other research principle.

[jeffy]

The funny thing is, Yost is making this decision based on numbers. He's just not following any line of thought regarding sample size or any other research principle.

 

Not surprising since he has been know to choose a position player to start against a particular pitcher based on him being something like 3 for 5 against that pitcher.

 

But, to me it is not even that, Bush has aparently been pretty consistently much better at home than on the road over several years (then again, this seems to apply to the whole team), the problem is the other effects of this that have been pointed out...limited use of one bullpen spot and perhaps messing up both of them because they do not have a normal routine.

 

But maybe it will work out okay with the competition between the two of them pushing them both to do well.

[TooLiveBrew]

It makes no rational sense that 29 random ballparks should have any effect on how a person pitches. The only thing that can happen here is that it screws with the pitchers by making them skip normal starts and lose any routine they might have had. Also, how can one defend sending Dave Bush to the bullpen after what he's done lately?

 

Great points, Skjelly.

 

 

Does this mean that Bush can't even be used in the bullpen? Since they are on the road, he'll obviously do terribly, right?

 

Well, see, um...

 

 

Yost talked to both Bush and McClung about the decision and said it was met with "suspicion."

 

I have just become an even bigger fan of both Dave & Seth. Sad when the players are clearly sharper than the manager -- that can't engender confidence in Ned around the clubhouse.

 

 

Sometimes it seems like Ned can't stay out of his own way.

 

This has always been my biggest problem with Ned. He manages for what he wants to see happen, not reality.

 

 

"I'm trying to present an opportunity for each player that is conducive to his success."

 

I do appreciate that Ned strives to do this, but as kramnoj & jeffyscott mention, he doesn't appear to fundamentally understand the way statistics are best used predictively.

[datrain711]

how many starts does suppan get if he keeps pitching terribly?

 

Its funny that all season long we have been waiting for Dave Bush to contribute, and as soon as he does, we are going to cut his starts in half. I just have a bad feeling about all of this. Why are we messing up the routines of 2 pitchers at this point in the season.

[naivin]

how many starts does suppan get if he keeps pitching terribly?

I'm not sure this isn't another factor in all of this...Traditionally, Suppan is obviously a different pitcher in the second half, but if he cannot pitch effectively, do both Bush and McClung end up in the rotation anyway?

[datrain711]

I'm not sure this isn't another factor in all of this...Traditionally, Suppan is obviously a different pitcher in the second half, but if he cannot pitch effectively, do both Bush and McClung end up in the rotation anyway?

that's what i'm wondering. I hope suppan pitches as well down the stretch as he did last year, but at the same time, we can't afford all these 4-5 inning starts. hopefully the time off gets him refocused and he'll get off to a hot start in the 2nd half. if not, then people will definitely be calling for him to be pulled from the rotation.

[danzig6767]

It makes no rational sense that 29 random ballparks should have any effect on how a person pitches.

 

Aside from whether this pitching platoon is a good idea, how else can you explain three straight years of such a wide gulf between the home and road pitching stats by Dave Bush? It may not make rational sense, but the fact remains that Bush has been an above average starting pitcher when he's at Miller Park since we acquired him and he's been a miserable pitcher on the road. Since it's been the case in each year Bush has been a Brewer, i have a hard time believing that what park he's pitching in doesn't in fact have a sizable effect on how Bush pitches.

 

Like Ned and Maddux though, i have no idea why this is the case and why the effect is so dramatic.

[yount19.u]

I am in the minority, but I think this could be a good move as long as the following happens:

1. Mota gets dfa'd

2. Bush/McClung take over the long releiver/mop up role every 3-5 days

3. Villanueva gets regular apperances in the 8th inning over Gagne and Riske

 

I agree with an earlier post that stated this move is more because of Bush's road numbers and not McClung's home numbers. Bush obviously cannot handle the added pressure of a hostile environment. Also, with McClung admittedly going through a dead arm period, this move may offer some needed rest for his arm that could help come playoff time. I also don't think they'll need to keep an extra pitcher, as whoever starts last out of McBush can come out of the bullpen 2-3 days later instead of trying to pitch one of them 3-4 days before a scheduled start. This could all obviously backfire, but even so, it will wreck the season as they can always go back to a five man rotation. I give credit to Yost for having the balls to try something against the grain like this. Just remember, the five man rotation wasn't part of baseball's vocabulary until the last couple of decades.

[logan82]

yount19 wrote:

Just remember, the five man rotation wasn't part of baseball's vocabulary until the last couple of decades.

Neither was saving your closer for the 9th inning, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

[obobo55]

My only concern is that Bush loses his ability to go 7-8 strong when he is going well. I would have preferred to have him pitch as the #5 altogether, but I can understand the reasons for the experiment. As long as he can still go deep into games when pitching well, I say go for it for a few weeks and see what happens. Most likely someone gets hurt anyways and it all shakes out.

[TooLiveBrew]

2. Bush/McClung take over the long releiver/mop up role every 3-5 days

 

I like this concept a lot, too. Unfortunately Yost's usage seems to indicate that 'Long Reliever' = 'Only pitches in blowout'. Totally defeats the purpose of a long man if you aren't willing to use him in a tight game where the SP got rocked for 5 or 6 runs in the first 4 or 5 innings.

[Bucky Rules]

I'm skeptical on this one as well. However, I saw a post from rluz that quoted a study that suggested that Bush actually DOES pitch much different in the ballparks not named Miller Park. I'm willing to give it a shot for a short period of time. But, if it doesn't work well from the start, I'll be very tempted to pull the plug on this experiment.

[naivin]

. But, if it doesn't work well from the start, I'll be very tempted to pull the plug on this experiment.

 

Based on what I've heard thus far, I'm thinking Ned will feel the same way, so I really don't see a problem.

[phxMILWfan]

If we are still working on the naming of our 5th starter I'd like McClush...

[Ashford Lando]

If we are still working on the naming of our 5th starter I'd like McClush...

 

As in Deth McClush??? Or, Save Blung?