Roy Halladay - Offseason?

[JonnyLungs]

With the article today that MLB Trade Rumors linked to, it makes me wonder whether the Blue Jays would be looking to move Halladay in the offseason. The article shows Halladay's increasing frustration with the direction the Blue Jays are heading. I've been a fan of Halladay forever (who wouldn't with the numbers he puts up?).

 

Halladay is signed fairly reasonably through 2010, so we'd be getting him for two years. Also consider how well he pitches in the tough AL East.

 

The biggest elephant in the room is what state the Blue Jays front office will be in, whether Ricciardi gets fired and who is brought in. The Blue Jays have shown interest in JJ Hardy, but of course it would take much more to get a player of Halladay's caliber.

 

Just an idea I thought I'd float out there, a little early to be thinking of the offseason but any smart team is always thinking ahead.

 

Link: Frustration Grows for Halladay

[fondybrewfan]

Hardy, LuCroy (If he isn't the PTBNL), and Braddock

[RU Rah Rah]

I'd think about it, certainly. He's a horse, and the team is going to need someone at the top of the rotation. The big question is the price, of course. If the team thinks J.J. is expendable over the long-term, it might be interesting to work him into a starter-and-prospect deal.

 

But then the Jays are going to need pitching of their own, esp. if they deal Burnett before the deadline this year. I just can't imagine them being willing to unload someone of Halladay's caliber. (But you never know, right? GM's do wacky stuff all the time.)

[And That]

You might well have to give up Jeffress to get Halladay and I wouldn't do that. If they can get Halladay for a package not including Jeffress (and including Braddock I assume), it would be real sweet to pick him up for a few years.

[ryanbraun75]

I believe that Toronto could be a prince fielder possible destination this offseason. A Fielder for Halladay would work really good for both sides. I think that Prince needs to be traded this offseason for a high caliber pitcher and if Halladay is on the block then he is the guy i would go for.

[JohnBriggs12]

In McGowan, Marcum and Litsch, the Blue Jays have a solid core of cheap starting pitching. They need offense bad. If they can get more young pitching for Burnett, they might be willing to deal Halladay for a hitter especially if they can save some short term cash. SS and 1B are obvious areas of need.

 

Fielder or Hardy plus maybe Villanueva might get it done.

[Hate those Rodents]

I'd ask for Overbay back too if we trade Prince.

[nate82]

I'd ask for Overbay back too if we trade Prince.

Why?

We already have a player in the minors who could do what Overbay could do at a lower price.

 

[twobrewers]

You might well have to give up Jeffress to get Halladay and I wouldn't do that.

I am suprised by that.

 

I'd give up Jeffress and Fielder in a heartbeat for two years of Halladay.

[KCBrewerfan34]

Fielder for Halladay sounds absolutely great, especially for us, Gamel to 1b and starting staff would get the #1 starter we desperately need and maybe just maybe the Brew could ink one of out potental Fa's. If you're going to spend money you might as well buy starters. PITCHING KILLS GUYS!!!

[TheCrew07]

If we're going to burn Fielder a starting pitcher, why not someone with a team option till say 2014?

[Hate those Rodents]

Yeah, Matt Cain would be the guy to target in the off season in a trade, as has been mentioned often here.

[ILuvDaBush]

What about Hardy/McClung/Lucroy/Errecart at the deadline? Supplement Irribarren for Errecart if you want, but I assume they would want some offense and Hardy has a good deal of bat. McClung has been reborn as a 91-94mph pitcher, using finesse to power. And Lucroy and Errecart, like Hardy, offer above-average stick at their positions (not every 1B prospect is Matt LaPorta). The amount of service time you would be sacrificing for 2+years of Doc would seem to match up well, I would imagine, if you believe in Hardy and McClung. But with the pay raises on the near horizon for many of our "Baby Brewers", and Escobar flashing more bat than he's exhibited before (as well as a 3B who could slide over to short, though creating another hole at 3B against lefties), Hardy could be seen as replaceable. If Doc can be had, you would hope Doug is burning up the lines. With neither ace guaranteed to be here ext year, and Yo's knee probably needing some time to get back to its workhorse psyche, it would be unbelievable to have a certifiable ace who gives his bullpen the day off regularly.

[Oldcity]

This is an interesting topic. While Halladay is great, I don't think I'd do a Fielder swap for him straight up. He'll be 32 and 33 in his two years remaining on his contract. If the Brewers trade Prince I'd prefer to get someone younger who they can control for three or more years.

[Hate those Rodents]

I agree Stevo/

 

In fact, I think how we obtain starting pitchers hinges a lot on what CC does for us and where he takes us. If he truly can take us to the World Series, I think we might look at a trade like this (for a top echelon starter with only 1-2 years left on his contract) as well as resigning Sheets or Sabathia.

 

If we only make the playoffs or worse yet don't make the playoffs, there is no way I see us shelling out young talent that is controllable for a pitcher we'd only have for 1-2 years. A different type of Fielder or Hardy trade would be made to land a #2 type (and hopefully we still can resign one of the two current #1's).

[Weirdos19]

I think if we make the playoffs, Sheets may want to stick around.

 

Sign Sheets. Then trade Hardy and Nelson to Toronto for Halladay. That might be attractive enough for them.

 

Remember, if we trade Prince, we have no left handed power. Gamel would be the only lefty in our starting 8.

 

One thing I think Melvin will address is the balance in the lineup. Having Branyan helped for a while. But I'm afraid he's gonna slow down even more.

[endaround]

This is an interesting topic. While Halladay is great, I don't think I'd do a Fielder swap for him straight up. He'll be 32 and 33 in his two years remaining on his contract. If the Brewers trade Prince I'd prefer to get someone younger who they can control for three or more years.

And who exactly is this pitcher? In the major leagues maybe Cain, but Cain's value is tied to his low home run rate. If San Francisco is willing to trade him for Fielder you have to wonder how sustainable it is away from The House That Bonds Built.

 

[Oldcity]

I should have said I prefer pitchers with three or more years, but if it's for two years I'd like them to be younger than Halladay. It was reported that the Brewers' plan B if they couldn't land Sabathia was Zach Greinke, and my reaction was, 'why wasn't he plan A?'

 

Some of these don't match up 1 on 1 (i.e. the Brewers would give up more than Prince, or they'd need more back in return for Prince) but here are some names off the top of my head : Matt Cain, James Shields, Zach Greinke, Chad Billingsley, Shawn Marcum, Dustin McGowan, Ervin Santana, Joe Saunders, Jered Weaver, Jeremy Guthrie, John Danks, Jon Lester, Ubaldo Jimenez, John Maine, Jo-Jo Reyes. Plus, who knows whether top prospects like Clay Bucholz, Max Scherzer or Clayton Kershaw would be available in a Fielder deal.

[TheCrew07]

And who exactly is this pitcher? In the major leagues maybe Cain, but Cain's value is tied to his low home run rate. If San Francisco is willing to trade him for Fielder you have to wonder how sustainable it is away from The House That Bonds Built.

 

There's plenty of players that fit that bill... James Shields, Shawn Marcum, John Danks, Jarr Jurrjens, Joe Saunders, Armando Galarraga, Greg Smith just to name a few out of the American League that came up in my research for my Long Term Rotation Ideas thread. Some of these deals would work better three ways. Those are just some players I came across with MLB experience, there's many more players out there that are MLB ready but unproven like a Jeff Niemann for example, who would be much less expensive.

 

I think sometimes we get too hung up on name recognition, and it's damn hard to follow every teams minor league system to know what's truly available. The key for the Brewers is to get a Sheets or Sabathia, before they are a Sabathia and have the name recognition and the expensive track record.

 

I dont' recall a more even trade than Hamilton for Volquez, that's a fantastic deal for both sides. I'm not looking to fleece the other team, I want the talent to work out for both sides. I'm not into trading Fielder for 2 years of anyone, that's not maximum value to me. I'd rather get a Shields whom the team could control until 2014 or similar young horse. Just because a team is willing to trade someone, doesn't mean they have major flaws... What does an AL team care about Prince's D at 1B?

 

Like endaround I'm not all that high on Cain, I think there are plenty of better options out there. Cain was one of the first players mentioned around here, and for some reason he continues to be the focus of trade rumors here on the site. There are a couple of organizations that Milwaukee matches up very well with directly, I don't think SF is one... but if there is a 3 way deal, then any number of those young players could be available.

 

Maybe I'm just more of nerd and like doing player research more than most, but it's something I enjoy doing.

edit. Stevo nice list, many of the same names.

[Hate those Rodents]

I think we match up well with Toronto. There've been three interesting starting pitcher names mentioned in this thread.

 

What I'd prefer to do is expand the deal and "buy low" on Alex Rios. His numbers are not great this year, but he'd be a great corner outfielder for us should we move Hart to center. It'd be nice to get something like Rios and McGowan for Fielder. Not sure if that matches up value wise but I'd be interested in what some of you thought of a two for one like this where we get Rios and send Fielder to Toronto.

 

One thing working in our favor (and this may be up for debate) but we hardly fleeced them in the Overbay trade. Bush has been fairly solid and will still be cheap for us, but it's essentially been an Overbay for Bush trade straight up (with a few contributions from Gross here and there).

[twobrewers]

Sign Sheets. Then trade Hardy and Nelson to Toronto for Halladay. That might be attractive enough for them.

Halladay might be the best pitcher in baseball right now.

 

Hardy and Nelson isn't even a starting point.

There's plenty of players that fit that bill... James Shields, Shawn Marcum, John Danks, Jarr Jurrjens, Joe Saunders, Armando Galarraga, Greg Smith just to name a few out of the American League that came up in my research for my Long Term Rotation Ideas thread.

But how many of those players are available. If you control a pitcher for a few years - it has to be a team desperate for a bat. You wouldn't trade a pitcher because you are "out of it", since you still have a few years where you might have a competitive team.

 

Marcum might be possible - since Toronto clearly needs offense. But I would doubt the rest of the pitchers ever get near the trade market this offseason.

[TheCrew07]

Well I would guess Hart isn't available unless the proper deal comes down the pipe either... the question was besides Cain who else is there? Stevo threw a ton of names out there and I dropped a couple of my favorites. I'm curious why Marcum would be doable but not Shields, when TB is clearly much closer to the top of the division and will need help on the offensive side? I intentionally staid away from guys that were the #1 pitchers on their teams, and I listed players from teams that have a fair amount of quality pitching in the bigs and in their system. I would much rather have a rotation full of 5 #2's than a rotation of a 1, 2, and 3 #5's. A 2 type pitcher isn't a significant drop off and gives back excellent value.

 

I just don't see the value in burning a premium offensive player like Fielder for someone we'll control for 1 or 2 years and then won't be able to afford again. I want a young workhorse type pitcher, and there are plenty around the majors to be had with a year or 2 under their belt, we get them after their growing pains are mostly complete. The next level down as I mentioned would be AAA and AA guys that are close to MLB ready, and there's a fair amount of them as well, guys like Niemann... but they'll likely struggle for a bit once they get the call, most young ptichers do. That doesn't bother me if they get their struggles out of the way in 2009 as I still think 2010 will be our next best shot after this year. If Fielder goes I want the maximum possible value for him coming back, and we simply aren't going to get that targeting "Aces".

[piccione88]

mlbtraderumors, posted a link to an article by Jeff Blair, of globesports, which quotes Holliday as saying that he does not want to go anywhere. In the article Holliday says:

"There's no chance if I have anything to say about it that I'm going anywhere. I can understand maybe disappointment with the way we're going. But as long as it's up to me, I'm staying."

[Oldcity]

Twobrewers, I'm sure some of the players I mentioned aren't available, but teams are looking for offense. Arizona, San Francisco, Toronto and Kansas City definitely come to mind. I think those teams match up well with the Brewers.

[twobrewers]

Stevo -

The problem is that a team has to really really be desperate for batters to trade pitchers who are under their control for several years. On occasion, a player with 2 years remaining will be traded. But it is very rare that a quality young pitcher who you can control for more than 2 years is available.

I don't believe Arizona would trade looking for offense. They can get better with maturity. I would think San Francisco and Kansas City both are so far from competing that trading for a young batter doesn't really make sense. (Prince Fielder wouldn't get them to the playoffs anymore than Greinke would)

Toronto makes some sense. Since they might be one quality bat away from competing.

However, rumor does have it that the Giants are possibly willing to deal Matt Cain.

Word is the Giants might part with Cain, who is 5-7 with a 4.06 ERA in 20 starts, if offered an intriguing package of young talent.