Estrada Hurt

[Bruce Ciskie]

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I'm no expert on HIPAA (I just passed the online training class), but I do recall that it's amazing the level of "protection" you have to go to protecting patient and employee information. Generalities may work, but I wouldn't be suprised if ANY discussion is against the law now.

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My wife works in health care, and I am a sports broadcaster who works mainly with college teams.

 

Trust me. Nothing that the law does prevents a coach from discussing generalities. Even at the college level, coaches have to be allowed to say who is and who isn't playing. And when a reporter says "Is ___ injured?", they can answer at least in Yes/No terms. In some cases, they can go into specifics, but not all.

 

At the pro level, there isn't much that can't be said, from what I have been made to understand. But even if you believe Ned can't talk about specifics related to Estrada's health (maybe Johnny doesn't want Ned to do that, which is his right), he can still speak generally about it.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"I'm wavering between thinking this is sarcastic and thinking this is genuine"

 

Oh, it's genuine, alright. You're the goods, Bruce.

 

But I've looked in his eyes, and Ozzie Guillen IS the devil, however. Just so you know...

 

"I've been sick for months and it got progressively worse the last 2 months to the point of a major crisis last week. Fortunately, I think we finally figured out the problem. "

 

Hope you're OK now, Dave. Last year, it was me out for, like 5 months with medical issues, so I sympathize. Tomorrow, I have perhaps my final (!) appointment with my surgeon, so it's tough to type with my finger crossedjkcdsjcldljmxdijxk

 

Maybe karma has a way of head-butting you if you're skeptical of the unquestioned 100% accuracy of OPS. Ya hear that, fellow skeptics? You could be next! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Bruce Ciskie]

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Oh, it's genuine, alright. You're the goods, Bruce.

 

But I've looked in his eyes, and Ozzie Guillen IS the devil, however. Just so you know...

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Yeah, but he's won a World Series. That automatically makes him a managerial genius of the highest order. Right? http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

Please understand my skepticism towards your initial show of concern. You don't just get away with having "Chief Cynic" below your name on a message board. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Thurston Fluff]

But Bruce, Ned likes Milwaukee and he's positive. Who needs winning when you've got the "best" manager in baseball.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the Brewers winning?

 

With the comparison to Guillen I think managers who go on so much emotion can have a positive effect when things are going good but a negative one when things go south. So while I give him more credit than I do most managers for what he did to win the WS for the Sox I also give him more blame for how hard they have fallen. Given my druthers I'll go with an even keel manager over an emotional one. Bobby Cox and Joe Torre will always be more to my tastes that Lou Pinnella or Bobby Valentine.

 

As for Ned, it looks as if he buried this Estrada injury info a bit, but perhaps he was assured by JE, by the medical staff, his coaches, by trainers, whoever, that Estrada could play all this time.

 

Geno I will give you this. We tend to be on the opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to optimism/Ned but you have always given fair consideration to the other side of the equation. My the Lords of cynicism frown your way.http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

I tend to believe your statement is true. It's hard to believe any manager, let alone a former catcher, would trot out a catcher who was in jeapardy of hurting himself worse by attemting to play through it. If it was later in the season there may be an arguement for it. Now there isn't. If Ned was pushing it for no good reason he deserves to be critisized. From what kind of manager Ned appears to be to me he wouldn't do it. Then agian I always liked Ned so I view him differantly than haters do.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"Please understand my skepticism towards your initial show of concern. You don't just get away with having "Chief Cynic" below your name on a message board."[/i[

 

Yeah, but doesn't that mean I should be the skeptical one, then? http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

_________________________________________________

 

But I've looked in his eyes, and Ozzie Guillen IS the devil, however. Just so you know...

 

"Yeah, but he's won a World Series. That automatically makes him a managerial genius of the highest order. Rig

 

I asked Bob Brenly (who'd know for sure) and he said if Ozzie ever had a soul, he probably pawned it for that 2005 season.

 

It looked less like divine intervention, and more like a Joe Boyd deal with Mr. Appelgate when home plate umpire Doug Eddings unquestionably called AJ Pierzynski out once, and then a second time for emphasis, only to magically have a change of heart and allow the despicable catcher to take first base. The rest of that postseason went rapidly downhill from there, and you know the rest...

 

"Geno I will give you this. We tend to be on the opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to optimism/Ned but you have always given fair consideration to the other side of the equation."

 

Thanks!

[1992casey]

My take is that the Brewers appropriately concealed the injury to avoid giving an edge to their opponents. After the fan uproar, they felt the advantages to explaining the situation outweighed the benefits of continuing to conceal it. By that point, scouting reports were probably catching up, anyway.

 

As far as the play itself, I was more upset at how the ball was put in play rather than the running. It was an example that pretty much shoots holes into the "just make contact" theory. Working the count and looking for a pitch to hit?or drawing a walk?would have obviously been better. And if Johnny failed via the K, one out would have occurred instead of two.

 

Still, I can't get overly wound because that's that Johnny "is"; it's not like it was totally unexpected. It's unfortunate that his turn came up at that time.

[Fatter than Joey]

Then again I always liked Ned so I view him differently than haters do.

 

I am not a Ned hater.

 

OK I just lied.

 

What has ground my hamburger over these last months, is the sacred cow treatment that Ned seems to enjoy with some of the bigger kool-aid enthusiasts here at BFnet. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

I often feel like after reading some posts here that when I was immersed in free-love and cheap Huber beer in the early 90s, I missed out on Ned Yost's amazing playoff runs. However, when I check baseball-reference.com, I see that Ned Yost has been nothing short of craptacular.

 

I suppose there exists 2 sides to the coin that is Ned Yost.

 

One side gleefully drinks the kool-aid, in their jumpsuits, ready for the spaceship (Battlescrapper Gritlactica) to take them to their Eden -- awaiting an 8-peat of WS titles.

 

The other side of the coin, where I tend to exist under, tends to blame Yost for everything that happens in a Brewers game up to and including Davey Nelson verbally scarring us with "Vargas needs to pound meat".

 

I understand the point Bruce is trying to make, it is hard to defend Yost using tangible things like playoff appearances, winning seasons and overall winning percentage -- as Yost is on the losing end of that comparison with just about every current manager in MLB, -- but yet Yost gets more kudos than managers like Guillen and Pinella, who have actually produced results.

 

So, we are told that Yost is a genius with his players, and then we experience a situation where either Yost is sending his catcher out with a bad hammy to catch for 12 innings, or he is letting his catcher get away with lallygagging down to first base. Then we get some sort of statement like "Aquino fields his position better". I am calling bull-ploppy on you Yost!

 

Johnny Estrada plays catcher with the same tenacity and technique I would imagine the fat rich kid from Pee-Wee's big adventure would. The odd thing to me, is that JE is the antithesis to the gritty standard-bearer that Ned seems to prefer, I would think by now JE would be 3rd on our depth chart behind recently acquired scrapper Sal Fasano and the equally gritty Ned Yost IV or V (I often wonder if one of those Scandinavian countries is just making clones of Yost, and calling them Ned Yost IV, etc..)

[Fatter than Joey]

My take is that the Brewers appropriately concealed the injury to avoid giving an edge to their opponents.

 

Do you mean before or after the game?

[Thurston Fluff]

FTJ to be honest this in one instance where I have a hard time understanding why Ned would leave Estrada in with an apparant injury. I have a harder time understanding why he would defend Estrada for lack of hustle. Or why any major league player would lolly gag in that situation. If he hustles the Brewers win and he gets to go home earlier. Just from what I know of Yost it seems inconsistant that he would have jeapordized further injury so I tend to look for another expaination.

For the record the reasons I like Yost is his even keeled approach and his consistant way of handling things. I think things like strategy and game management are minor in comparison. The tangible result are comeing with better players. Comparing record of others is apples and oranges sicnce they all have differant talent levels.

[Fatter than Joey]

I have a harder time understanding why he would defend Estrada for lack of hustle.

 

Agreed -- after all we had Brady Clark on our roster for what seemed like 10 years -- I thought if nothing else, we were all about the hustle, grit, gametitude and aceyness.

 

Brady Clark beats out that ground-ball and crashes into Jeff Conine prematurely ending his 17 year career.

 

Comparing record of others is apples and oranges since they all have different talent levels.

 

Right -- however many, many other managers have taken teams in the toilet bowl to the playoffs in less time than Yost has. Plus just because you can't compare apples to oranges, doesn't mean one isn't doing a crappy job.

 

Brady Clark would have managed this team to back-to-back championships by now.

[mikerollins]

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I often feel like after reading some posts here that when I was immersed in free-love and cheap Huber beer in the early 90s, I missed out on Ned Yost's amazing playoff runs. However, when I check baseball-reference.com, I see that Ned Yost has been nothing short of craptacular.

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He's also managed team with far less than craptacular talent (until this year). Amazing how that works.

 

2003 Opening Day Lineup

 

CF Alex Sanchez (career OPS .702)

2B Eric Young (.749)

1B Richie Sexson (.864)

LF John VanderWal (.792)

RF Jeffrey Hammonds (.787, but coming off a .729 season)

3B Wes Helms (.778)

C Eddie Perez/Keith Osik (.687/.629)

SS Royce Clayton (.681)

P Ben Sheets

 

Rotation:

Glendon Rusch Career ERA 5.01

Todd Ritchie Career ERA 4.71 (coming off a year with a 6.01)

Wayne Franklin Career ERA 5.54

Matt Kinney Career ERA 5.29

Closer: Mike DeJean

 

2004 Opening Day Lineup

CF Scott Podsednik

SS Craig Counsell (.694 career OPS

2B Junior Spivey

LF Geoff Jenkins

1B Lyle Overbay

3B Wes Helms

RF Ben Grieve

C Chad Moeller (.641)

P Ben Sheets

 

Rotation: Doug Davis, Matt Kinney, Chris Capuano, Wes Obermueller, Victor Santos

Closer: Dan Kolb

 

I'm not going to go through the painful OPS's and ERA's of the entire lineup again because just looking at the names shows you how non-talented this team was.

 

With those 2 rosters, it doesn't matter if you are Lou Pinella, Joe Torre, Bobby Cox, Tony LaRussa, Earl Weaver, or God. You aren't finishing .500 no matter what. To even judge Ned Yost on those 2 seasons is an insult to your own intellegence.

 

2005: With an improving young team takes the step to .500.

2006: Ready for a breakout year in 2006. JJ Hardy: Lost for season with broken ankle. Rickie Weeks out for season with bad wrist. Ben Sheets out for most of season. Tomo Ohka out for season. Derrick Turnbow had a 2nd half collapse. Chris Capuano had a 2nd half collapse. So many things went wrong last year out of Yost's control that is' hard to blame him for the dip back down below .500

2007: Same talent level as 2006, but a little better with Braun, Gallardo, Villanueva all year, Suppan, etc. 12 games over .500. 1st place by 3 games. Playing very solid baseball.

 

I'm sorry this Estrada debate turned into this, but my goodness to even compare Ned Yost to any other manger because he hasn't won anything yet...and in your own words...has been craptastic. Those flippin lineups would have made any manaager in sports history have awfully craptastic results.

 

 

(fixed accidentally posted emoticon --1992)

[Fatter than Joey]

To even judge Ned Yost on those 2 seasons is an insult to your own intellegence.

 

I think you mean intelligence http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

We judged all the players on the 2002-2004 rosters, I am not sure why Ned should get to skate on that.

 

I'm sorry this Estrada debate turned into this, but my goodness to even compare Ned Yost to any other manger because he hasn't won anything yet...and in your own words...has been craptastic.

 

I am not sure how. Let me try again.

 

Ned gets a lot of kudos here, and it is certainly is not based on results. I am confident that other managers, while may not have been able to win WS titles with the 2003-4 Brewers, would have done a better job than Yost.

 

If Yost supporters can't use results to support the notion that Ned is a competent manager, they use hand-waving arguments such as, that Ned is popular with his players and gets the most of the talent he has. Estrada is a case study that Yost has no special talents here. He either has his C with a bad hammy catching 12 innings, or he is letting Estrada fail.

 

I certainly won't argue that as the Brewers talent increases their win total will as well. However I felt like Yost was a subpar manager in 2003, and his handling of Estrada and others tends to make me think the zebra hasn't changed his stripes.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"Johnny Estrada plays catcher with the same tenacity and technique I would imagine the fat rich kid from Pee-Wee's big adventure would. "

 

Don't be so hasty, FTJ.

 

Remember that battle royal Pee-Wee and Francis Buxton had in the tub/indoor pool? Francis fought hard, but Pee-Wee had the eye of the tiger. PW really wanted his bike back!

[mikerollins]

Intelligence was a typo. I was typing that post pretty fast. Sorry.

 

As for the argument. I disagree that many managers would have done a better job with the 2003 and 2004 teams than Yost. You can make an argument for those 2 teams being the absolute worst teams ever assembled in major league history. I don't understand how you can seriously think any other manager would have done better with that team.

 

As for the Estrada thing, it's really pretty simple.

 

Estrada is a lazy player. He jogged to first on the double play. It pissed Yost off. He got yelled at when he came off the field. He got yelled at in the locker room. He got benched yesterday. Ned chose to keep it in house like a good manager would do, instead of airing dirty laundry to the public, by saying his hamstring has been bugging him.

 

Trust me, if the hamstring was bad, he wouldn't have been in the game in the 12th inning. There is really no reason to blast him to the media so they chose to use a nagging injury as an excuse. What's the big deal here? It is what it is.

[Bruce Ciskie]

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Estrada is a lazy player. He jogged to first on the double play. It pissed Yost off. He got yelled at when he came off the field. He got yelled at in the locker room. He got benched yesterday. Ned chose to keep it in house like a good manager would do, instead of airing dirty laundry to the public, by saying his hamstring has been bugging him.

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Why say anything more than "We're getting him a day off after he caught 12 innings last night"? Why raise a red flag with everyone by saying he's hurt and has been for two weeks, if that's not really the issue?

 

I don't doubt anything that you posted, by the way. I just don't understand the logic of lying and saying the guy's been hurt for two weeks. All it does is make me doubt Ned even more, because he let the guy catch 12 innings while injured. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/happy.gif

[mikerollins]

How did Lou Pinella do with those craptastic Devil Rays teams 2003-2005??

 

63-99, 70-91, 67-95.

 

How did Lou Pinella do with those not so craptastic Mariners teams in 2000-2002?

 

91-71, 116-46, 93-69

 

So what happened from 2002 to 2003? Did Pinella forget how to manage? Did he spend too much time talking with the idiot Ned Yost and some of that poor managing rubbed off on him? Or did he just have a team that was far less talented?

 

How about Joe Torre managing the Mets in 1977-1980?

66-96, 63-99, 67-95?

 

Was he that much of a worse manager there than he is now with the Yankees? Or is there just a tad more talent on the Yankees roster?

 

How about Phil Garner from 1996-2001 with Milwaukee and Detroit?

80-82, 78-83, 74-88, 79-83, 66-96?

 

Then he gets to Houston and goes 89-73 and plays in a world series in his first full season? Did he suddently turn into a good manager? Or did talent play into account?

 

How about Bobby Cox? He was 69-93 and 66-94 in his first 2 seasons with the Braves. Then he came back 10 years later and won 14 division titles in a row. Do you think the talent improved during those 10 years? Or do you think Cox went from Idiot to genious?

 

How about Terry Francona? He managed the Philles to records of 68-94, 75-87, 77-84, 65-97.

 

He was fired after 4 years. He took over a talented Red Sox team in 2004 and has since gone 98-64, 95-67, 86-76.

 

The point is, just because he didn't have to get fired and re-hired somewhere else to show it, Ned Yost can manage. He's always been able to. He is just now finally able to manage a team that has the ability to compete.

[mikerollins]

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Why say anything more than "We're getting him a day off after he caught 12 innings last night"? Why raise a red flag with everyone by saying he's hurt and has been for two weeks, if that's not really the issue?

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I think this is a good point. He could have just said he was getting the day off, but by benching Hardy too, it was pretty obvious what was going on. I also think Ned predicted that question was going to come about Estrada not running hard so he got to it before anyone could ask it by saying he's been hurt.

 

One thing Ned doesn't care about is what people think of him. He doesn't care if by him saying he's hurt, Fatter than Joey on a message board is going to criticize him for letting him play hurt.

 

He doesn't care what people think of him. That's part of what makes him such a darn good manager. He's willing to go against popular decision without worrying about what people will think of say.

[Fatter than Joey]

He doesn't care what people think of him. That's part of what makes him such a darn good manager.

 

This is exactly what I am speaking to.

 

People say things like above -- without knowing if it is true or if such a thing actually is an attribute that good managers have.

 

Really I don't want to engage in a Yost is good/bad debate here -- rather, just want to point out with regards to Estrada, Yost handled this poorly.

[mikerollins]

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Really I don't want to engage in a Yost is good/bad debate here -- rather, just want to point out with regards to Estrada, Yost handled this poorly.

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Really I don't want to engage in a Yost is good/bad debate here--either, just want to point out with regards to Estrada, Yost handled this very well.

 

I think there's more to it as well with Hardy and Estrada out of the lineup again. In addition to Braun who has a tendancy to stare at a ball before he runs, and Hart who has looked very lackidasical (spelling) of late.

 

I think Yost is making a point right now that you play hard all the time or he'll play people that will.

[backup catchers]

Those flippin lineups would have made any manaager in sports history have awfully craptastic results.

 

Those lineups would have made most managers put a gun to their head.

 

People say things like above -- without knowing if it is true or if such a thing actually is an attribute that good managers have.

 

The same can be said about those who don't like him. That's why manager debates are so prevelant. It's just so subjective.

 

Really I don't want to engage in a Yost is good/bad debate here -- rather, just want to point out with regards to Estrada, Yost handled this poorly.

 

If he was told by medical personel that he wouldn't harm his leg further by catching and Estrada told him he was good to go then he didn't handle it poorly. We just don't know everything that went on either way. Those of us who have a positive view of Ned will see it one way those who don't will the view it the other way.